Help!!

Ryzom's market place. Sell your hard earned wares here or pick up a bargain.
usinuk
Posts: 392
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:43 am

Re: Help!!

Post by usinuk »

nathan7 wrote: If you chose to put melee and mage progress on hold to harvest/craft, then thats your decision, not mine. Sorry if I dont sound sympathetic, but grinding for months just to catch up to 2-3 weeks of melee/magic isnt my idea of how a game should be.
So then those of us who made this 'decision' should just pucker up and give you the best items in the game without pricing in the disconnect between our months of effort versus your 2-3 weeks? Maybe you haven't figured this out, but earlier in your career, you got spoiled by prices tanking for q100 and below items because of the patch 1++ changes to harvesting and a bunch of people who decided to get a few skill points by nibbling at crafting using cheap, readily available mats. This decimated crafting margins for those of us who took it seriously...margins on lower quality items went through the floor. Nowadays, it often comes out to less than selling raw mats.

Now you're on the other end of the spectrum where there are only a handful of people who have outlasted the grind and can access and craft q100+ stuff and it ain't a whole lot of fun, is it?

To answer this question a little differently,
What have you done...to warrant getting items of this quality, benefits and level ?
To my point...the nerfs that went through can be directly linked to the fact you didn't get the nice shiny armor you wanted. And since I saw a grand total of about 10 non-crafters who posted about them, what have you done to warrant getting our best?
Harvesting/Craft is not for me, though it is sad I am forced to, to make anymore progress.
And again, I don't mean to be unsympathetic, but why should we care now if your advancement slows to the rate that ours has been for months?

It's all connected. Just keep this in the back of your head - maybe the next time a crafter cries foul on these boards you should support them.
Last edited by usinuk on Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
tinpony
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:10 pm

Re: Help!!

Post by tinpony »

lariva wrote:Yep...

P.S. 2/4 = 1/2 :)

Meant as in "two out of four" since heavy armour requires four mats whereas amps require 3, but I'll write it out full next time just so I don't confuse anyone. :)

T.
jackmor
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:44 am

Re: Help!!

Post by jackmor »

Ive said it before and still believe that the best choice in the game is to round out your skills. Just one is helpless without the others. That is just the way this game is. Just try to harvest without hp from melee. Try to craft without mats from harvest. Try to melee without help from casting. Try to cast with out protection from melee. Try to cast or melee without weapon and armor from craft.... and it gos on and on like that they are intertwined.

And if you think well Im in a guild and we have harvesters and foragers that take care of that kind of thing. Well, think again, you will need the focus for dodge/parry. After some other games hit the market at the same time as p1 we lost our best harvest/crafters.

My point is raise all your skills they will only enhance each other and make you a better player or asset to your guilld. And yes you will always have your favorite skill way higher than the rest.

PS, You know NATHAN,I dont think I would want someone to join our guild just so they could get what they wanted. You wanted to go it solo and only join a team when it helped you. And now your joining a guild only because it helps YOU.
nathan7
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:10 pm

Re: Help!!

Post by nathan7 »

No, I didn't join a guild just to benefit ME. Maybe you should get to know me better before you jump to conclusions. I left a position of high rank in a guild to be a 'member' in another guild that would help me develop a better feel for the more boring aspects of the game, such as harvesting/crafting. I don't just join a guild and ask for a free ride. Since I joined the guild I grinded Harvest to 73 from 15 in 2 days and I'm not getting the 14k exp off a source in Yrk like some of you may have pre patch 1. Thats quite an accomplishment. I joined a guild because we all benefit, not just me. As for the wanting to go solo and only join a team when it benefits me? I have no idea what you're talking about. It seems like you all want to flame me for simply asking to buy a set of q150 HA any color/higher than basic. But then again what good is dapper to anyone? It seems all its good for is to buy Tele tickets and maybe grind off a level or two in harvest. Most crafters are just selfish because they were forced to go through the grind to make their own gear. I'm sorry but after witnessing this first hand so far, (which I knew was going to be tough) I wouldnt want anyone else to go through with it 'if' they didn't want to. Who am I to tell someone what do to do if they dont really want to? Which is why I wont just be an in guild crafter. I'll actually take orders, even for lowbies. And yes, it will be for dapper. I mean seriously, what much more can you ask from a lowbie to benefit you? But then again it all refers back to my point of everyone wanting whats best for themselves and their guild. Everyone else should just suffer. Selfish is the only words I can come up with right now. I'm just so dumbfounded by the reactions of you people. Again shame on me for offering dapper for armor. lol


Member Zenith of OmegaV
User avatar
tinpony
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:10 pm

Re: Help!!

Post by tinpony »

nathan7 wrote:Most crafters are just selfish because they were forced to go through the grind to make their own gear. I'm sorry but after witnessing this first hand so far, (which I knew was going to be tough) I wouldnt want anyone else to go through with it 'if' they didn't want to. Who am I to tell someone what do to do if they dont really want to? Which is why I wont just be an in guild crafter. I'll actually take orders, even for lowbies. And yes, it will be for dapper. I mean seriously, what much more can you ask from a lowbie to benefit you? But then again it all refers back to my point of everyone wanting whats best for themselves and their guild. Everyone else should just suffer. Selfish is the only words I can come up with right now. I'm just so dumbfounded by the reactions of you people. Again shame on me for offering dapper for armor. lol


Actually, try getting from *115* to *175* harvest in two days and come back and tell me what an accomplishment you've done. Things change at high levels.

No-one argues that XP was pretty sweet pre-patch one. While I personally never met anyone getting over the capped 3K XP per pull, I know that exploits/cheat exist and they're not quite the same thing.

Nathan, the fact is, I appreciate your predicament. Understand that those of us making high level armour are doing our best to supply the general populace. Understand our restrictions:

1) Very limited packer space. What may seem like wide open spaces to a non crafter is small, cramped and woefully inadequate to a crafter. It makes absolutely no sense that I can hold 300 bulk and my entire apartment can hold 500. It's like saying that I can personally carry a TV, so my entire apartment should be absolutely full with a TV and a stereo. Insane. It means for the crafter that they have to pick and choose what mats to have. I generally keep a supply of linings and stuffing and may hunt out clothing and armour clips as I need them. It means I can't just drop and give you twenty on the spot. I set aside a portion of my time to craft and I can't just whip up supreme black heavy armour just because someone wants it.

2) Picky, picky, *picky* people have discouraged many crafters from 'going public' on the vendors. Frankly, unless you're prepared to vendor everything for resale price with no markup, people whine constantly. We get sent tells and told off loud and long and shrill for daring to place a choice q130 amp on the boards for 50K, or a set of excellent white dodge armour for higher than basic purple armour of lightness. Tell ya what, Poindexter, take a look at the stats sometimes. I can make an amp with excellent amber and get 3 out of four stats at 82%/82% and someone will swear at me for selling a choice amp at above vendor resale. It's choice because I use fine/basic mats to get the final stat bump. I could use all excellent mats and it would be a 70% amp. Excellent name, sucky stats. Being a crafter means having a bunch of people who have never picked up a needle and thread lecture you about how to do what you do and great volume, at great length over many continents.

3) Money. Get over it. You pay more for several reasons.
(a) It's hard to get. You want black armour? Fine, you pay for it because my supplies are limited. If I have limitless supplies, the price goes down.
(b) I vendor the crap stuff at resale price and the stuff that means something and that I put a little effort into costs more. You want to shop at WalMart? Fine, you get the basic purple set for vendor resale. Just don't go to Walmart and complain that the Louis Vutton costs more than ten bucks.
(c) I have to buy supplies. I need specific supplies of things I don't have the time or energy to hunt, and I need a wide variety. I can't get all the stuff so *I* have to buy it. I'm not going to pay the markup on mats and then sell it el cheapo. I am lucky enough that my usual team-mate is a high level harvester. He's pretty point and click when I want something. However, he doesn't have access to some of the mats and, newsflash, some of the hunted mats are *much* better than foraged for certain crafts. When I was a lowbie crafter, I was shocked and aghast that it would cost me 12K to level. Twelve-thousand dappers??? At my level now, that buys me maybe 5 mats which I can then put toward a 26 mat combine for 1 small fraction of one level of 6 branches that I have in heavy armour.
(d) I need money. Simple as that. We all have our needs. I'm not sitting on massive wads of cash. I'm a guildless crafter. I can have anywhere from 200K to 2.5mill depending on the day but I spend a huge amount of money crafting and for my own melee supplies and the teleporter tickets. I've had people request that I bring them armour and then bicker over paying me for the teleport. 20K daps charity to sell you something at vendor resale? Get real.

I can and do make tonnes of armour for friends and acquaintences. I had a fantastic afternoon playing dressup with my favourite Tryker. :D I genuinely love craft. I vendor a fair bit on the markets, anywhere from 3-5 full sets of light at a time in various colours as high stats as I can manage with my supplies. I price according to what I think the armour is worth and I have trouble charging too much. If it's a really good set of armour, I have a friend sell it. He's much more practical. ;)

We work just as hard at our chosen branches as you do yours. Craft is a singularily thankless job because of the amount of *input* required. Pretty much every other branch is a 'something for nothing' scenario. What you have to put in to melee to fight is a so so suit of armour and a sword somewhat near your level. And that one input can see you ten or twenty levels or more. Mages need the one amp for a span of levels. Harvesters need a pick, lots of patience and the occasional rez. ;) Crafters cannot advance in any of their fields without a massive supply of mats. I can't just pick up a needle and start sewing. I have to have the right mats, in the right proportions at the right quality to sell. It's not for everyone.

Tin.
nathan7
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:10 pm

Re: Help!!

Post by nathan7 »

tinpony wrote:Actually, try getting from *115* to *175* harvest in two days and come back and tell me what an accomplishment you've done. Things change at high levels.

No-one argues that XP was pretty sweet pre-patch one. While I personally never met anyone getting over the capped 3K XP per pull, I know that exploits/cheat exist and they're not quite the same thing.

Nathan, the fact is, I appreciate your predicament. Understand that those of us making high level armour are doing our best to supply the general populace. Understand our restrictions:

1) Very limited packer space. What may seem like wide open spaces to a non crafter is small, cramped and woefully inadequate to a crafter. It makes absolutely no sense that I can hold 300 bulk and my entire apartment can hold 500. It's like saying that I can personally carry a TV, so my entire apartment should be absolutely full with a TV and a stereo. Insane. It means for the crafter that they have to pick and choose what mats to have. I generally keep a supply of linings and stuffing and may hunt out clothing and armour clips as I need them. It means I can't just drop and give you twenty on the spot. I set aside a portion of my time to craft and I can't just whip up supreme black heavy armour just because someone wants it.

2) Picky, picky, *picky* people have discouraged many crafters from 'going public' on the vendors. Frankly, unless you're prepared to vendor everything for resale price with no markup, people whine constantly. We get sent tells and told off loud and long and shrill for daring to place a choice q130 amp on the boards for 50K, or a set of excellent white dodge armour for higher than basic purple armour of lightness. Tell ya what, Poindexter, take a look at the stats sometimes. I can make an amp with excellent amber and get 3 out of four stats at 82%/82% and someone will swear at me for selling a choice amp at above vendor resale. It's choice because I use fine/basic mats to get the final stat bump. I could use all excellent mats and it would be a 70% amp. Excellent name, sucky stats. Being a crafter means having a bunch of people who have never picked up a needle and thread lecture you about how to do what you do and great volume, at great length over many continents.

3) Money. Get over it. You pay more for several reasons.
(a) It's hard to get. You want black armour? Fine, you pay for it because my supplies are limited. If I have limitless supplies, the price goes down.
(b) I vendor the crap stuff at resale price and the stuff that means something and that I put a little effort into costs more. You want to shop at WalMart? Fine, you get the basic purple set for vendor resale. Just don't go to Walmart and complain that the Louis Vutton costs more than ten bucks.
(c) I have to buy supplies. I need specific supplies of things I don't have the time or energy to hunt, and I need a wide variety. I can't get all the stuff so *I* have to buy it. I'm not going to pay the markup on mats and then sell it el cheapo. I am lucky enough that my usual team-mate is a high level harvester. He's pretty point and click when I want something. However, he doesn't have access to some of the mats and, newsflash, some of the hunted mats are *much* better than foraged for certain crafts. When I was a lowbie crafter, I was shocked and aghast that it would cost me 12K to level. Twelve-thousand dappers??? At my level now, that buys me maybe 5 mats which I can then put toward a 26 mat combine for 1 small fraction of one level of 6 branches that I have in heavy armour.
(d) I need money. Simple as that. We all have our needs. I'm not sitting on massive wads of cash. I'm a guildless crafter. I can have anywhere from 200K to 2.5mill depending on the day but I spend a huge amount of money crafting and for my own melee supplies and the teleporter tickets. I've had people request that I bring them armour and then bicker over paying me for the teleport. 20K daps charity to sell you something at vendor resale? Get real.

I can and do make tonnes of armour for friends and acquaintences. I had a fantastic afternoon playing dressup with my favourite Tryker. :D I genuinely love craft. I vendor a fair bit on the markets, anywhere from 3-5 full sets of light at a time in various colours as high stats as I can manage with my supplies. I price according to what I think the armour is worth and I have trouble charging too much. If it's a really good set of armour, I have a friend sell it. He's much more practical. ;)

We work just as hard at our chosen branches as you do yours. Craft is a singularily thankless job because of the amount of *input* required. Pretty much every other branch is a 'something for nothing' scenario. What you have to put in to melee to fight is a so so suit of armour and a sword somewhat near your level. And that one input can see you ten or twenty levels or more. Mages need the one amp for a span of levels. Harvesters need a pick, lots of patience and the occasional rez. ;) Crafters cannot advance in any of their fields without a massive supply of mats. I can't just pick up a needle and start sewing. I have to have the right mats, in the right proportions at the right quality to sell. It's not for everyone.

Tin.
1.I do understand that space is limited, 2.I'm no longer picky, 3.) 3 million for HA set is way too high, and i think 50k for an amp isnt really too shabby (people need to back off on that),A.Again I have mentioned time and time I no longer care of color, B. I don't mind paying anywhere from around 500k-1 million.....and thats for 'fine' quality at the least. Ok, so you need dapper, don't expect one person to pay the expenses you need for everything else you mentioned. If the crafter has something he needs in order to make my armor..wep...etc....and needs to buy it..I don't mind either buying what he needs or paying the cost of the mat. I also pay for traveling expenses if crafter needs it. Finally, I'm sure you do work just as hard as me. I never said anybody was lazy....just selfish. 15 to 73 is an accomplishment no matter what anyone says....for goodness sakes 2 days. Noob harvester not knowing what skills are best, what of a slightest clue where the mats are that are needed, many things play a factor in this role. Are you French? Just wondering because you like to add the un-necessary U in your words such as Armour and Colour.
User avatar
bgrifter
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:13 pm

Re: Help!!

Post by bgrifter »

nathan7 wrote:1.I do understand that space is limited, 2.I'm no longer picky, 3.) 3 million for HA set is way too high, and i think 50k for an amp isnt really too shabby (people need to back off on that)
Blame Nevrax for totally devaluing the currency, hardly crafters fault for having to charge material cost + a small profit. Beyond that, you get what you pay for. If a piece of armour includes max HP credit, high dodge, made from higher quality mats to maximize damage reduction, expect to pay more (as components are more expensive) than you would for purple vendor armour.
nathan7 wrote:Ok, so you need dapper, don't expect one person to pay the expenses you need for everything else you mentioned.
It's unreasonable for a tradesman to request cost of components plus a small profit to continue raising skill? Heck, in what's supposed to be a competitive open marketplace really most crafters should be charging more than they already are. The currency is so devalued that anything under a million dappers is virtually insignificant.
nathan7 wrote:I never said anybody was lazy....just selfish.
Well, you were right about one thing...
nathan7 wrote:15 to 73 is an accomplishment no matter what anyone says....for goodness sakes 2 days.
No, really, trust me on this one, it isn't. Try 150-175, or 100-150 in some secondary branches. Or marking all the necessary mat spots in the roots, or learning which high quality mats are in season where under what conditions. 15-73 is to harvesting what kids in the sandbox are to architecture.
nathan7 wrote:Are you French? Just wondering because you like to add the un-necessary U in your words such as Armour and Colour.
You are aware that virtually every English speaking country in the world aside from the US spells words with the letter U?
User avatar
zumwalt
Posts: 730
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:36 pm

Re: Help!!

Post by zumwalt »

Small reality check for Q150 armor.

(not for us crafters, for those asking for it)

You CAN harvest the mats yourself, if you are high enough harvesting level and know where to get the mats, but since you are neither a harvestor or crafter.

In Matis lands, go to Fleeting Gardens, there is an outpost just south of the border, near this outpost is a good spot for q150 mats, depending on season, that can get you a full set of heavy armor.

Pay a harvestor to go get you mats from here, or just go to the market and buy all the mats for your armor you desire.

Then find a crafter who is willing to use there skill that they spent countless hours building up, and have them craft you a full set, find out first if they will do it for free or at a surcharge.

You 'might' be able to walk away with only spending 400k to 800k dappers from materials ALONE, then lets just say the crafter is generous, and only charge you a 10k dapper per full successful craft, thats only an additional 50k (I think)

I am not in game right now and don't have my notes on me, so can someone please type out the number of mats per each of the 4 areas for heavy armor.

So people wanting to see the cost can write it down and go buy the mats from market to see what BASE is? (on quality they are buying that is)

We need to start putting this into perspective for those who don't understand the dynamics of the costs.
For those who know about today, I have a supprise for you tomorrow.
+================+
| Ryzom Site Developer|
| Pegasus Foundation |
+================+
User avatar
tinpony
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:10 pm

Re: Help!!

Post by tinpony »

zumwalt wrote:I am not in game right now and don't have my notes on me, so can someone please type out the number of mats per each of the 4 areas for heavy armor.

So people wanting to see the cost can write it down and go buy the mats from market to see what BASE is? (on quality they are buying that is)

We need to start putting this into perspective for those who don't understand the dynamics of the costs.
Heavy Armour (not in game right now, so I'll correct as needed):

Pants, Helmet, Vest:
9 Armour shell, 8 Lining, 7 Stuffing, 2 Armour clips each

Sleeves, Gloves, Boots:
7 Armour shell, 6 Linings, 5 Stuffing, 2 armour clips each.

Full suit:
48 Armour shell, 42 Linings, 36 Stuffing, 18 Armour clips = 146 mats (BTW, for those who think we should just have piles of this stuff, a packer holds around 10 stacks or 1000 mats, and I level amps, light armour, heavy armour and two-handed weapons, all of which have their own mat needs in addition to storing my own armour, weapons and some resale items. On a good day, it can take me 3+ stacks of mats for *one* level of one branch of heavy so a craft day can use a packer's worth of meks in about 15 minutes... and that's waiting on focus to regenerate and running to the vendor to dumps armour when I'm encumbered).

Average vendor price for straight resale is anywhere from 1600 - 3000 dappers a piece for mats and up for supremes although the chances of buying supreme mats on the vendor is hen's teeth rare. I've seen some for 10K a piece. I personally will buy mats at 3K daps a piece if I really like them or they're really rare. For the most part, I try to go for the cheapest brands. You cannot buy basic vendor quality supplies above q100 so everything is foraged/hunted and your supplies are dependant on whatever is foraged/hunted that day.

So, base cost is around 230K for a suit with bought basic quality mats.
You want higher q? Almost 440K. An average of 39K - 79K a piece.

Vendor resale for 150q is about 43K - 50K a piece, if anyone buys it. Otherwise, a staggering 22K or thereabouts.

Factor in the minor cost of tools (1K a piece and I've gone through several but not a huge deal), teleports to the various markets and to the roots (10K a pop), the price of grind mats that make armour that never sells to get to the point where you make stuff that sells.

That last point is significant. I vendor 10 pieces for every one that's good enough to sell. That means for bought supplies, I take a loss on ten pieces to sell one at a little profit. At my level, 10-20 combines per armour type (boots, sleeves, whatever) per level with 6 branches to raise. The resale stuff is a very small proportion of the actual combines done by a crafter. On top of all that, take into account the huge and, I still feel, inappropriate fail rate by crafters. With an 80% chance of success using a skill within 5 levels of my mat quality, I can still fail four in five times. It's been like that in beta where I would make 2 successful pieces of jewelry per 15 combines (and yes, I know about heavy armour and penalties and all that). A failure is useless for resale, gives a fraction of the XP but uses all the same amount of mats. Another dent in our vast profits it seems.

And just because it's foraged doesn't make it 'free' and everything's a profit. Foraging takes time, and even supplimenting half the foraged mats with bought ones eats up any profit quickly.

Tin.
User avatar
zumwalt
Posts: 730
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:36 pm

Re: Help!!

Post by zumwalt »

Thanks Tin, also please note, that the BASIC mats sold by the vendor are 2x the price of a harvestor basic mat in general.

So if the harvestor broke even for there time they would charge the same as a vendor (2x price shown at the time they set it for sale), then to gain a proffit, the general rule of thumb that I have seen for those who want a proffit is 3x price shown.

If the cost of a full suit ran say 500,000 just to make on bought materials, it would sell for 1,500,000 on market to make up for Time, Skill, Energy and Materials.

Just thinking it through, that is where the price comes from.
For those who know about today, I have a supprise for you tomorrow.
+================+
| Ryzom Site Developer|
| Pegasus Foundation |
+================+
Post Reply

Return to “Bazaar”