Neutrality

[brackish]

Well, that being said, they also did not attempt to help the Kami.
....
Then again, they also did not help the Kami, which they are stating who there aligned with.

We did and this can be confirmed and already has been.

Im sorry I was as hostile as i was. I am not usually like that. I should have posted my last response better and quoted the parts or your reply as i did above.

[trosky]

Since I participated in the BB event and after reading :

"well as i stated above it was the karavan and NOT the kami who defended tryker, so by that means the kami abandoned the trykers and aren't their allies nor willing to help tryker when in need, great allies the kami are for tryker"

He is right that the Kami arent present nor usefull in Trykers land, and hes right the Karavan helped us but the Kami ignored us.

Since I was already more toward technology and it seems we have to take side to participate in some events, I guess ive finally decided wich side im on.

Go Karavan !

[zumwalt]

I have read where some of your guild assisted the Kami, so that said, why didn't your entire guild go to help the Kami?

I oppoligize that I over looked that earlier.

The threat was of the Cutes attacking Karavan outpost in Bounty Beach, as in making themself a strong presence by removing the Karavan presense.

Its a 'hostile' thread twords individuals who were there and chose not to follow the defending team, so your initial response of hostitilty was understandable.

The threat from the Cutes was the purpose to the event in question, not Kitin invading Tryker territory, so this has me confused as to the actual stance of LoT.

[zumwalt]

Also, regardless of history, the way the game has unfolded is that the Karavan has presence in Tryker and Matis, the Kami has presence in Fyros and Zorat.

The Tryker can get karavan respawn points, so can the Matis.
The Zorian and Fyors can get Kami respawn points.

It was by not coincidence that the Tryker has a guy in Matis at Yrkanis, and vice versa.

The story is unfolding that Tryker and Matis are to join together and Fyros along with Zorat are supposed to join together.

The general dynamics of the game is already unfolding and this is set in motion.

Regardless of personal beliefs, the powers that be have made the choices for the races as to who will be aligned with whom.

What you can do personally will not change the outcome of the races and there alignment via Kami or Karavan.

If your 'faction' on a race could determine your respawn capabilities, this would be a different story, but as a Tryker, your only able to get Karavan respawn points.

Also, notice how there is not a single physical Karavan npc in any of the Kami cities, along with there are no Kami npc's in any physical Karavan cities.

Reading the history of the game you will learn why.

It is a good question as to if both the Kami and Karavan race themself (not tryker, matis, fyros, or Zorat), are still at war with each other off world, and there trying to enfluence us as pawns in there sick game.

Maybe there both trying to prepare more troops for an epic battle down the road that no one is truely aware of.

This is truely a game of chess and how we participate in it is up to the individual.

[brackish]

Again, I am stating I am not speaking for the entire guild. I myself am only an officer.
----
My reasoning for waiting for confirmation of a Kitin Invasion was because before i even read the posting on the forums or visited Windemere, i was told of an larger than usual presence in the area outside of BB. This proved to be a false/incorrect report.

I immediately assumed an invasion mounting. LoT was at the summit in Pyr and agreed to help other races in time of need during an invasion of the Kitin. We never covered this infestation of the cutes or other creatures.

Would you not say that we are treading in new territory here?
---
Our entire guild could not make the journey to Zora. Using teleportation or other means.
---
I would never totally abandon the Tryker race. I will never support the Karavan. The Karavan is what I saw as the main impetus behind that march and offensive in BB.
----
I agree this is a heated discussion here. Hindsight is 20/20. I can only go on what i knew and what information i had at that time.

If the Karavan were not there, would LoT have played a role in defending the invasion into BB? YES

[thexdane]

Again, I am stating I am not speaking for the entire guild. I myself am only an officer.
----
My reasoning for waiting for confirmation of a Kitin Invasion was because before i even read the posting on the forums or visited Windemere, i was told of an larger than usual presence in the area outside of BB. This proved to be a false/incorrect report.

actually it was true but if you want to say it was a lie to justify your position then go for it

I immediately assumed an invasion mounting. LoT was at the summit in Pyr and agreed to help other races in time of need during an invasion of the Kitin. We never covered this infestation of the cutes or other creatures.

Would you not say that we are treading in new territory here?

nope still invading forces, so they didn't expect others as only kitins had invaded at the time. btw you just contradicted yourself saying there was no invasion and then saying there was one.

---
Our entire guild could not make the journey to Zora. Using teleportation or other means.
---
I would never totally abandon the Tryker race. I will never support the Karavan. The Karavan is what I saw as the main impetus behind that march and offensive in BB.
----

ok so then you could have helped in tryker instead of zora. do you honestly think the invaders would have said "hey he's kami aligned we won't kill him" sorry but the last time i checked that answer would be NO.

again it's the enemy of my enemy is my friend, meaning if something is attacking both kami and karavan alike, which the cutes and gibbai were, then no matter if you like the kami or the karavan both were allies at that point.

sides i didn't see ANY kami help for tryker. great allies they are for you

I agree this is a heated discussion here. Hindsight is 20/20. I can only go on what i knew and what information i had at that time.

If the Karavan were not there, would LoT have played a role in defending the invasion into BB? YES

so you're traitors to your land, we accept that and i hope that you and your guild accept those consequences.

maybe you should see who's helping your race and therefore guild and who really isn't instead of putting hope in an ally that was unwilling to help you

[zumwalt]

Ahh ok here is where the disconnection is then.

Since you are avoiding the Karavan do to your lack of trust, you did not go through the script for the event via the npc just inside bounty beachs.

The script was very long and alot of information was in the script, with the exception of the actual destination.

It talked about the invasion from the Cutes and what was needed to be done to have a 'winning' scenario.

Since your guild decided to remain at the portal in BB and just do some general killing, you did not participate in the script and were unaware of the actual threat.

Since you did not understand the nature of the threat, you were looking for Kitin to head to the portal, therefore under those circumstances, you felt that your guild was defending Tryker territory from an invasion that was not even going to happen.

The two goals to the weekends events were to just defend an outpost, keep its chief alive, and then go out and remove the cutes leader.

This is where you needed to have a scout from your guild go learn of what the real threat was, so you could make an informed decision as to wether to assist or not.

Although the Karavan seem to have become your enemy in some fassion, speaking with there diplomats from time to time can atleast keep you appraised as to what your enemy is up to.

I personally do not fault you for choosing any side.

Zumwalt
Crafting and Trade Officer
High Officer - Pegasus Foundation

[neofuzz]

People are going to look and see what you did, and make their judgements on that, irregardless of what you say here in the forums. So goes the saying 'Actions speak louder than words'.

You and your guild made a choice at the event, and people didn't like it. That is on you, not on them. You can't make nice, you can't just say it's 'rp' you can't claim people are 'bleeding the lines of IC and OOC'. You made your bed, now it is time for you to lay in it. You don't like it? Then do something about it, or just give up and quit. Plain and simple.

Ok Zzei. You tried to help the evil Karavan, for that I hate you. Thank the Kami you lost. Btw, I'm a Kami Champion, neener neener neener

[tinpony]

as for fame being undone, let me give you yet another real world example

sadaam hussein was fighting the iraqi regime, whom the united states hated. the american supplied him with arms and trained his troops. soon after he got into power he turned against the united states. now look at him

i could also do the same thing with the taliban or al queda.

Yes... and to draw your anaology into the parameters of this debate... and after he turned on the US, would you leave him in place and send more arms and weapons dealers back to him to supply him with more arms and weapons just because now that he's attacked you, you've attacked him and you want to be friends with him?

If you're telling people to simply build up fame with those groups again, think of the ramifications. Missions were run that built up the supplies of these tribes. They then used these supplies to attack the people of my home country. We defeated the generals, but the leaders remain in place. Knowing that, why on Atys would we then go and assist them in rebuilding their armies? That fame is gone and it's gone for a good reason. I will not attempt to buddy up to Black Circle for the sake of profiteering. Personally, I would consider those who fought in the raid who then turn their backs on the suffering of their fellow soldiers to profit from both sides of the battle to be the true 'traitors'.

Tin.

[zzeii]

Granted that they had no prior knowledge, but the idea that fame can be 'undone' is far more of an oportunistic stance than not taking part in the raid in my opinion. If you sincerely believe that defending your home against a malicious army, foiling their invasions and killing their leaders... following that up with returning to their camp the next day to rearm, reclothe and re-equip them for their next assault on your lands them is the 'better' stance then I will politely disagree with your assessment and with Zzei's.

This was not a direct assualt from the Kami or Karavan, it was from gibbai and cute forces. So going and aiding tribes that are aligned and did not have a hand in this (Hamazans of the Dead Seed, a nice kami-matis tribe) could further renew the kami's faith in your actions, and regain their favor. And to the best of my knowledge, no 'event' fame was awarded until after they were in the PR (beyond possibly the killing of anti-kamis and the black circle, which there were no such tribes present in BB, not sure if they were in the witherings either?).

Dissident Tribes
Throughout the lands of Atys, dissenting homins have split away from their original civilizations forming fifty or so communities. These communities, otherwise known by the civilizations as tribes, control entire regions and continuously strive to extend their living space.
http://www.ryzom.com/?page=factions_dissident

There are many tribes out there, of which some are purely kami/karavan aligned, and helping them will raise one but lower another. But there are some that will raise the fame in one, without negatively impacting the other.

As this was a fight against the goo, not a purely kill karavan or kill kami event, I would see that if you were to loose some standing with the kami (or karavan) due to your actions against the goo then aiding one of the dissident tribes that either the kami/karavan look kindly on to return your standings with them to their former level, as not a traitorous act, but to show to them that you were working towards the defense of your homelands (which, as someone had mentioned earlier, they(kami for tryker, karavan for zorai) weren't helping with either).

I would like to apologize for the hostility in my previous post yy48n19, it was uncalled for. I was just trying to say, is that the actions of you and those present in BB reflected poorly upon you and your guild to those that were present defending our homeland. If you would have left the area instead of hanging around, and to what people interpreted as, taking advantage of the high spawn rate, no dp due to event, and safety of having a portal nearby, this negative player fame would not have happened. No amount of reasoning behind it, or story-telling (in an RP aspect) will simply dismiss what people saw and subsequently think of you and your guilds actions in BB. These people did not see those of your guild fighting over on the Witherings side (heck even some zorai didn't notice ). Of which I applaud them in aiding in the fight, in their best ability, against this threat to Atys.