If you want to know how hard MMORPGs actually get

[ahremark]

Yeah, I remember that. I played a 65 Shaman and got the first ever SLOW to land on Mithaniel Marr too... we found some great enjoyment in the complexity of those events.

I do not see any way to compare the two other than they are MMORPG. While I am done with EQ, I must say...it had immense content, questing, upgrading, exploration and one could solo exclusivly without ever needing a guild.

Areas of non-aggro in nearly every zone allowed an affliction based player to "Kite" or "Quad" depending on class.

Dungeons, Planes, vast swamps and expanses...High levels, low levels... it fit all types of players.

In comparison... SoR is less expansive and losing the interest of those who want to solo or explore...

It also took EQ 5 years or so to get to that point and without buying the majority of the expansions (All 8 of them if you want to play with your friends wherever they go) in addition to the main game, you don't really have that much to play (And you're stuck with 1998 graphics). Add to that the first years of EQ had so many critical problems that it makes Ryzom's issues seem heavenly in comparison.
Take my word for it, i've played EQ since early 1998.

So no, EQ is not a good game to compare Ryzom to. It would be like comparing a zombie to an angel.

[aelvana]

I'd like to note that, while a lot of classes could solo, it was literally impossible for fight type classes to solo past low levels.

In 7 years, if Ryzom lasts that long, then it would be more fair to really compare it to everquest

[thantos]

I'd like to note that, while a lot of classes could solo, it was literally impossible for fight type classes to solo past low levels.

In 7 years, if Ryzom lasts that long, then it would be more fair to really compare it to everquest

A very fair assessment for sure, and I am not trying to compare the 2 saying one better than the other, but to point out that in our experiences from games past whether EQ, AO, DAoC...what have you, you get to a certain point of expectation of abilities or content.

IMHO, it is almost better to hold back a project until it is of appropriate content and stability. Having major promises and discouraging deliveries are a bitter pill, at least it was for me.

[svayvti]

So you're comparing Ryzom to EQ because everyone should have the same expectations of this game? EQ is how old and it forms the basis for your Ryzom comparison?

How about comparing newer games to notice a trend? care to compare to any of the upcoming games to see what the trend is?

Like everyone else I've been playing MMOs for ages. A lot of those earlier games are still going, but there was supposedly a reason more than graphics why most of us came to Ryzom.

Has all the vision of Ryzom been forgotten that fast?

[ctusk]

I think the comparison is fair, if you want to compare apples to apples, let's take a look at pre-kunark EQ and Ryzom.

Where is Ryzoms version of Nagafen, Lady Vox, Lower Guk or Solusek B?

Again, no content - even worse than the very first version of EQ1.

[thantos]

So you're comparing Ryzom to EQ because everyone should have the same expectations of this game? EQ is how old and it forms the basis for your Ryzom comparison?

How about comparing newer games to notice a trend? care to compare to any of the upcoming games to see what the trend is?

Like everyone else I've been playing MMOs for ages. A lot of those earlier games are still going, but there was supposedly a reason more than graphics why most of us came to Ryzom.

Has all the vision of Ryzom been forgotten that fast?

I think you totally missed the intention of even mentioning EQ here. It is not to compare games as such but to put it plainly. Over time with any genre, you come to expect certain things. Yes, they all start about the same, but... unless you are locked away in seclusion and are not actively looking at what the playerbase potential is in the genre to which you are launching into you will find that some have other expectations thamn what is being offered.

Yes, Ryzom was a fresh idea in this genre. Yes, they launched fairly well and those of us playing from the beginning were intrigued and awed..could not say enough good about it...blindly waved the NEVRAX ROX flag and blah blah blah.

Oh geez, why am I even going back around this circle again... it is useless...

Cerest is unable to elaborate on the SoR Team Reasons and their vision as it pertains to the future balance of combat/spells.

Of course we have the right to compare this to other games, and quite frankly, I hope that some rather intuitive developers pick up on what was good about this idea as well as known good characteristics of the Titans in the genre and can finally give us an RPG worth investing our time and money into.

[zzeii]

I think the comparison is fair, if you want to compare apples to apples, let's take a look at pre-kunark EQ and Ryzom.

Where is Ryzoms version of Nagafen, Lady Vox, Lower Guk or Solusek B?

Again, no content - even worse than the very first version of EQ1.

Prime Roots, Most borderlands (grove of insanity, scorched corridor, etc) have plenty of high level mobs to kill (and high Q stuff to forage). Just like EQ. There are high level named mobs to kill in each zone. And with the new increase in quantity of mats dropped by named mobs, they are worthwhile to kill to get the mats for making gear (they have the high parry mats, and I imagine max speed for weapon mats).

The only content difference is the lack of higher level quests and missions. Which in EQ took people a couple of months to get high enough to get (anyone remember when having bronze armor was uber?). How many months was it til vox/naggy were killed? Beyond that, the only difference in the low level content is a)story behind the tasks(personally I don't care how they word it, collecting gnoll fangs is just like SoR's collect X qX items), and b)reward (no xp in SoR, unless you count getting xp from killing/harvesting/crafting to get the items, and no 'loot' rewards).

Yes, there are no 'dungeons' (unless you want to count the prime roots).

SoR isn't a loot based game. It is hunter/gatherer/crafter. EQ was loot based. This is evident just by what gear people wear.

[ctusk]

Prime Roots, Most borderlands (grove of insanity, scorched corridor, etc) have plenty of high level mobs to kill (and high Q stuff to forage). Just like EQ. There are high level named mobs to kill in each zone.

True, but why? There is no reward.

And with the new increase in quantity of mats dropped by named mobs, they are worthwhile to kill to get the mats for making gear (they have the high parry mats, and I imagine max speed for weapon mats).

So kill mobs to be able to kill more mobs. Well, why kill them in the first place?
There is no quest here, no purpose, no game changing event, no new place I can go to once I beat this challenge of defeating those mobs. In the end - it is meaningless, for me, for my character advancement and for the game world.

The only content difference is the lack of higher level quests and missions. Which in EQ took people a couple of months to get high enough to get (anyone remember when having bronze armor was uber?). How many months was it til vox/naggy were killed? Beyond that, the only difference in the low level content is a)story behind the tasks(personally I don't care how they word it, collecting gnoll fangs is just like SoR's collect X qX items), and b)reward (no xp in SoR, unless you count getting xp from killing/harvesting/crafting to get the items, and no 'loot' rewards).

EQ wasn't great on the quest side either. Well the epic quests were kinda fun. What it had over Ryzom was the challenge/reward system and the fact that a lot of strategy was required to defeat the high level game content.
Up to today EQ's challenge is simple - level in order to access all the game content and defeat it. But there is the reward - it had places you could not go or could not see unless you overcame the obstacles in your way.

And it gave you a pretty good feeling of "achievement" once you managed to overcome them.

Yes, there are no 'dungeons' (unless you want to count the prime roots).

SoR isn't a loot based game. It is hunter/gatherer/crafter. EQ was loot based. This is evident just by what gear people wear.

And that is it's biggest problem. It doesn't work. It is boring. Design flaw.
With no content, no challenges that offer rewards - a game is doomed.

[zzeii]

True, there are no rewards (beyond fame, small dappers) to these tasks, yet. I'm bidding my time, working up my fame in preparation for future content. (Anyone else remember slaughtering giants/dwarves in EQ-SoV just to get faction for armor that would be upgraded easily in future expansions?) Unlike EQ, they are planning (at least from what the devs said in various chats) to have dynamic content. It's not something you can just throw in there, so everyone can complete the same 'quests' get the same rewards. (To quote /gu comics 'But that was your epic weapon' 'About as epic as making toast' conversation between 2 rogues, one of which had thrown her epic weapon at Innoruuk'). I'm looking forward to seeing what Nevrax will deliver. I'm not a fan of static content. To me they are just as entertaining as the tasks that SoR currently has.

And as for killing high level named mobs? They can drop some nice mats that can be used to craft some gear that are better than what you can forage (max parry mod, max speed, max spell power). And not they are dropping 12+ mats a kill. (Recently I picked up 14x q70 supreme cloth/grip (with max parry mod), 14x q70 supreme lining, 14x q70 trigger/jewel setting(supreme as well), and 15 q70 supreme counterweight/hammer (with high parry mod). This was off from 1 kill of messakan in Liberty Lake). If that isn't reward, then I don't know what kind of monty-haul game you are looking for.

Why kill mobs to get better gear to kill more mobs? Ummm...wasn't that half the point of the upper guilds in EQ constantly killing the same mobs over and over and over? To equip all the guild in the good gear.

And epics in EQ didn't come around til the time kunark was released (There was the FA for paladins, but even that wasn't available til a couple months after release).

With the addition of named critters dropping lots of good mats, they are increasing the reward for killing them. The content is coming (event in fyros about preparation for kitin invasion warning system this sundary hrmm...maybe because they plan on having that dynamic content coming.), yes for those who haven't made their way to pyr yet, it will be difficult to make it there. Or, maybe those guilds that can fight their way through to other civs could lend a hand in this endeavor. It is not impossible to cross between civs now. A number of guilds have lvl 150+ tanks. And the healers to back them up. It'll be harder than pre-patch. But hey, there is your challenge. There is your content. Working with other players to accomplish something difficult. Just like killing the gods in EQ-PoP. Only its player driven. Oh, wait, its the same thing. Only SoR isn't telling you what the challenges are. You have to find them and overcome them on your own, without an npc asking for your help. Your reward? A sense of accomplishment, helping out your fellow player, and being able to do the 'dev/gm implemented' content with your fellow gamers.

[ctusk]

Why kill mobs to get better gear to kill more mobs? Ummm...wasn't that half the point of the upper guilds in EQ constantly killing the same mobs over and over and over? To equip all the guild in the good gear.

Yes precisely. To get better gear to be able to survive the next zone/encounter that you couldn't unless you got the gear. Unlike Ryzom where a) gear doesnt matter and b) there is nothing to work towards to and nothing to see that you haven't already seen.

You can argue all you want about what they promised about their dynamic content and reason to get fame. So far I have not seen jack. And yes, maybe someday it will arrive ... or not.

With the addition of named critters dropping lots of good mats, they are increasing the reward for killing them.

The mats that drop off mobs are moderately useless. If you have a max damage pike with 27 speed or with 31 speed - big deal, difference it makes in combat - almost none.

The content is coming (event in fyros about preparation for kitin invasion warning system this sundary hrmm...maybe because they plan on having that dynamic content coming.), yes for those who haven't made their way to pyr yet, it will be difficult to make it there. Or, maybe those guilds that can fight their way through to other civs could lend a hand in this endeavor. It is not impossible to cross between civs now. A number of guilds have lvl 150+ tanks. And the healers to back them up. It'll be harder than pre-patch. But hey, there is your challenge. There is your content. Working with other players to accomplish something difficult.

Yay! What can I say...for all I care the Kitins can have Pyr. Didn't like them spiky Fyros in the first place. See ..roleplay . Sorry, too little too late. Defending invasions of silly bugs doesn't really excite me much anymore.

Just like killing the gods in EQ-PoP. Only its player driven. Oh, wait, its the same thing. Only SoR isn't telling you what the challenges are. You have to find them and overcome them on your own, without an npc asking for your help. Your reward? A sense of accomplishment, helping out your fellow player, and being able to do the 'dev/gm implemented' content with your fellow gamers.

You're missing the point. Killing mobs in EQ gave you a reward in form of permanent character development and required a lot of strategic planning and teamwork. With Ryzoms combat / magic system it's a pretty dull hack and slash game. So I have some dull and boring fight using my great Increased Damage XIIII attack and Acid Blast XXI spells (look I have variety, my poor healer is limited to Sap/Life/Stam Heal XXXI) to defeat the next Starship Troopers bug attack for a nice thank you from some GM and the sense of accomplishment to have defeated an invasion. Hmm.. yay. I think I'd rather go read a book.

Oh and about finding challenges. I looked. There are none. Of course it is always very relative what one calls a "challenge".