Stay free

[tschai]

One of the major asset of Atys nowaday is to be free of charge. The project is not at a beta level and it is also fully developped (well, we could hope better, but it's working and good looking). So, to fight other major MMORPG that have dry out ryzom from his players for a long time, I think that staying free is a good option.

I would furthermore say that staying free provide another benefit : Ryzom could be a second MMORPG for many gamers. For the mass people playing online games, I think that paying for two fees is too much. By beeing free you could gain occasional gamers like WoW do by selling temporary card and not deleting account of non paying people.

The problem of this business model is that you still need money I already see a post about advertising. I suppose it could be fit inside with special events (like the easter egg one) or objects ingame. But my solution is also to eradicate a bug of the game : suppress craft and dappers.

For me, crafting is a non sense since you need to create a thousand (at least) objects to get lvl 250 and it's not enough most of the time (you need many more to have a good level in each part of jewelery, armor, ...). More, when crafting nearby a NPC, you can resell everything ! And even at 2000 a piece, multiplied by 1000 you got a big amount of dappers. And everybody already know that dappers are useless ...

So my option is to use another way of leveling (which doesn't produce objects) and stop NPC from buying everything (it's the same about MPs dropped by MOBs). You now could inject real money in the system by special NPC which sells special objects and also NPCs which could convert crafted objects (by you or others) to special designed objects (like you can change your haircut). There are a lot of empty stores in towns ...

All this ideas are open, you can shout about but I think the title I gave to this thread is the only way for Ryzom to be.

[tootoo]

The actual crafting system is one of the best crafting system I know in the MMO world (appart A Tale in the Desert and SWG).
It's not wise to wipe it. We are a lot to love it and it makes Ryzom different from others MMO. If you change it the way you want, Ryzom will lost one of its strong feature. In Ryzom, crafters have an essential role. In your system, no (like the vast majority of MMO).

[ashitaka]

The way to level crafting is indeed very stupid. The system of recipes is great, but when you have to craft 12,654,254 boots (click click click) to level up, it's really not incentive.

[tschai]

tootoo, please do not misunderstand what I told. **** is right. He got the same opinion.

I don't say that the crafting system is not good, my problem is crafting so many objects kill the game:
- you get too much money
- you need to get too much materials (I think I've never seen a crafter which never do drilling, did you ?) because mps from mobs aren't enough (and you can't stop attaking mob to start a craft session when you're full)
- all best crafted items are the same (the recipe of the best weapons for example are know and there's no real choice in apparances)
- in this system, the crafting people are not center of the game because every guild are able to get all the materials they need
- and finally, I see to much of the same looking homins

[iceaxe68]

tootoo, please do not misunderstand what I told. **** is right. He got the same opinion.

I don't say that the crafting system is not good, my problem is crafting so many objects kill the game:

Personally, I do not have the same opinion. I have on occasion attempted to craft things in "Real Life" and discovered that in order to truly master a craft you must practice over, and over, and over. You may not find it fun to do in a game, but others do. It certainly doesn't kill the game.

- you get too much money

That may be true at moderate to high levels. Crafting jewels at q160, dappers keep piling up on me, even though I occasionally screw up and accidentally buy somebody's mats stored on the vendor at ridiculous markup. (Most recently blew 11 million on a short stack of q170 seed... merry early christmas, somebody...) However, that isn't true at lower levels. It just ramps up too fast.

- you need to get too much materials (I think I've never seen a crafter which never do drilling, did you ?) because mps from mobs aren't enough (and you can't stop attaking mob to start a craft session when you're full)

Again, in order to craft things in the real world, one must acquire materials. It is entirely possible to craft without digging, by purchasing mats from others or from the npcs, or by hunting suitable mobs. However, by doing so you miss out on one of the other great things about the game. Nonetheless, you have the choice, and yes, it has been done.

- all best crafted items are the same (the recipe of the best weapons for example are know and there's no real choice in apparances)

If that were true, there would be much less interest in crafting. Luckily, it's not true.

More options would, of course, be quite welcome. Nonetheless, the range of quality, resistances, etc. etc., not to mention the different colors and styles which can be achieved by finding the right mix of mats and plans is very rich when compared to very nearly any other game.

True, if you are not willing to put in the effort required, you won't discover the rewards. That's OK, but don't assume that everyone feels so limited.

- in this system, the crafting people are not center of the game because every guild are able to get all the materials they need

Please please tell that to my guildies, as they struggle to level up crafting and digging so we can try to meet most of our own needs. They need a good laugh.

- and finally, I see to much of the same looking homins

??? True, there are games with greater customization available, but this is hardly a cookie cutter character situation. I can recognize most of my guildies and friends even with the UI turned off, just based on appearance. A recent forum post showed pictures of several veteran characters and asked if anyone recognized them. Within very few replies all had been nailed, and none were mistaken. Same looking? I fail to understand.



As to the original intent of this thread...

I find that the game is worth a subscription fee, and would cry (literally) if it were dumbed down enough to make it work as a F2P. I'll spare you the rest of that rant.

[numbie]

For me, crafting is a non sense since you need to create a thousand (at least) objects to get lvl 250

You can say the same about leveling fighting or harvesting skills.
One can feel OK about the grind or not (I personally hate it), but removing it you create some new game, which is not exactly Ryzom.

[tschai]

to all said by iceaxe68, I disagree on :

- in real life you'll have to practice a lot. But will you produce as much and as fast ? 2 secs for anything, from an axe to a jewel ? and with really few tools. For a mettalic armor, a weapon or a jewel, no need for a flame ? I think there's no point comparing to real life

- yes, you got few money in low level. completely agree. but low level are fastly becoming at least 100. I got my first million dappers at about lvl 100. And in real life again ... :'(

- for material origin : in real world, if you ever crafted something did you dig materials from the ground ? My point is to say that the way it's done in Ryzom is absolutely against a MMORPG : you could do it without online ! well, it'll be far less fun without chat chanel

- about the recipes : yes, you could found thousand. My exeprience still say that for some craft, there are few option to get the best, eg: magical amplifiers

- same looking : well yes, I've been a bit far, but let's admit that skins of armor are not numerous and colors are not too ... And why 60% of red materials with 40% of blue give you red ?

- game worth a fee : definitly, but I think another thread was right "You never get a second chance to make a first impression" and I believe that most people that could play the game has already played the game once (and have a high level caracter in). So, they won't pay for what they already know (connecting to the game) but for what it can offer (which could be fee related)

And for numbie : my point is to say you can craft, or enhance your craft in fact, without everytime create an object ! That would be real life like.

[acridiel]

Yeah great, dumb down crafting and rob those who try to program craft simulators and stuff of their favorite pastime. Or at least make their task so much easier to them, so they can present everybody with THE recipe for Über-Amps with but a click on a website, or program.

*sarcasm off*

No, sorry. I completely agree with Iceaxe.
Changes to craftable items, in form of variations and additional things to craft and even a bit faster crafting (with Catalyzers its a LOT easier and faster than before them btw.) are OK in a way, if implemented carefully and not detreminal to the Games overall flair and feel.
But to dump Ryzoms unique crafting system in favor of Itemdrops or such *censored expression* is simply making the Game not Ryzom anymore.

CU
Acridiel

[iceaxe68]

Yay, a reasonable and pleasant debate! Thanks for your responses.

to all said by iceaxe68, I disagree on :

- in real life you'll have to practice a lot. But will you produce as much and as fast ? 2 secs for anything, from an axe to a jewel ? and with really few tools. For a mettalic armor, a weapon or a jewel, no need for a flame ? I think there's no point comparing to real life

You are quite right, it's not really like real life, just more like it than some other games' crafting. I think it would be just as fun for each crafted item to take longer, but give more experience. (Or for crafting levels to take less xp to move up.) But I don't mind it so much as it is. It's kind of nice doing a simple repetitive task like that sometimes, as a break from a much more mentally demanding RL occupation.

- yes, you got few money in low level. completely agree. but low level are fastly becoming at least 100. I got my first million dappers at about lvl 100. And in real life again ... :'(

Totally agreed. Wish RL was so easy...

- for material origin : in real world, if you ever crafted something did you dig materials from the ground ? My point is to say that the way it's done in Ryzom is absolutely against a MMORPG : you could do it without online ! well, it'll be far less fun without chat chanel

Well, here we have to consider the setting. My RL is set in a technological, specialized society. Ryzom is set in a low-tech, barely beyond hunter-gatherer society. People in that sort of society did indeed dig up crafting materials from the ground, or quarter it from hunted animals. Consider the spear-point crafter, searching for nodes of flint, chert, or obsidian, and then flaking the stones with a tool he made for himself from the antler of a deer he hunted and quartered and skinned and ate.

- about the recipes : yes, you could found thousand. My exeprience still say that for some craft, there are few option to get the best, eg: magical amplifiers

This is true, but I don't know them, so I'd have to learn, which is its own kind of fun. Also, finding the best combination using the mats that you actually have is fun. Also, acquiring the rare and special mats required for those special recipes can be fun.

- same looking : well yes, I've been a bit far, but let's admit that skins of armor are not numerous and colors are not too ... And why 60% of red materials with 40% of blue give you red ?

Ooh, can you imagine the endless array of colors available if you could proportionately mix mats for color like that? That would be awesome.

Now, imagine you are the photoshop artist required to paint 64000 different shades of the same object texture...

And the amount of disk space required to store all those textures...

Someday the hardware will make that a reasonable dream. But not yet, I think. Maybe next year

- game worth a fee : definitly, but I think another thread was right "You never get a second chance to make a first impression" and I believe that most people that could play the game has already played the game once (and have a high level caracter in). So, they won't pay for what they already know (connecting to the game) but for what it can offer (which could be fee related)

I think there are many thousands of people out there who would thoroughly enjoy playing Ryzom, and would be both able and glad to pay to do so. The thing is, they've never heard of it. The only reason I found it was because I read a news article that mentioned a MMORPG that might be acquired by an open source org (shortly before GF took over). I never played computer games before Ryzom, nor did I find any that appealed to me much while it was gone. I cannot be so unique as all that, can I? Marketing to existing MMORPG players is all very well, but the appeal of this game could be much broader.

I do agree about first impressions. The tip-top of the dev list should be fixing Silan bugs. And then completing half-finished things. And meanwhile, revive the Saga.

And for numbie : my point is to say you can craft, or enhance your craft in fact, without everytime create an object ! That would be real life like.

True, and that would be fun. But it would fall pretty far down on the priority list, I think.

[ashitaka]

This is not about dumping crafting system to have full items drops, duh!
It's about having something more original (more in the Ryzom mood) to level up than just click thousands of time and wait for a progress bar to fill. Thing that a bot can do better than a player.

I don't know, there are several modes of foraging, with different stanzas to adapt to it in order to get the most of a source. It's smart. Crafting is just about click click click until you reach lvl X and then you start to actually play with the mats to get the correct recipe (if you lived in a cave and missed the best recipe posted on every forums).

And NPC shouldn't even buy stuff from players. Either you sell your stuff to players or you get nothing. And dappers should come from somewhere else. Better rewards for quests for example.