Proposal: PvE Outposts

[vguerin]

so instead of people critisizing this guy for having ideas to make OPs available to anyone willing to work hard enough for them...

Much of what the OP stated has been heard before and in reply to your statements mark the last 4 words written by the OP. "What do you think ?"

There will always be folks that see things one way and of course opposing views... While I see some decent ideas I also would suggest those are broad strokes that cannot be taken too seriously.

The cost of ownership would create a hand-off environment as soon as what the OP delivered was no longer worth the cost. As seen with the current OP's a guild could easily create an alt. guild to take over and switch back again and again to reduce the costs. Again I understand he was giving examples, but what the current OP's give out are not worthy of the third stage of his plan based on the timeline.

One could also suggest that these same resources tossed toward a current OP holding guild could also return similar rewards to those expected in trade with the PvE NPC's. At least the PvP OP's seem to cause more guild interaction, this PvE example would not need any interaction outside NPC's. Where's the community in that ?

I have seen much better ideas ignored (or at least not acknowledged) by the Dev team in the past. More in line with how we tested OP's during the beta and further thought through... While not all ideas are created equal the OP chose to announce his and ask for opinions. Those ideas not in-line with yours are no better or worse then yours... You (and others) actually may hurt the OP by going off topic IMHO...

[bgraz]

Much of what the OP stated has been heard before and in reply to your statements mark the last 4 words written by the OP. "What do you think ?"

There will always be folks that see things one way and of course opposing views... While I see some decent ideas I also would suggest those are broad strokes that cannot be taken too seriously.

The cost of ownership would create a hand-off environment as soon as what the OP delivered was no longer worth the cost. As seen with the current OP's a guild could easily create an alt. guild to take over and switch back again and again to reduce the costs. Again I understand he was giving examples, but what the current OP's give out are not worthy of the third stage of his plan based on the timeline.

One could also suggest that these same resources tossed toward a current OP holding guild could also return similar rewards to those expected in trade with the PvE NPC's. At least the PvP OP's seem to cause more guild interaction, this PvE example would not need any interaction outside NPC's. Where's the community in that ?

I have seen much better ideas ignored (or at least not acknowledged) by the Dev team in the past. More in line with how we tested OP's during the beta and further thought through... While not all ideas are created equal the OP chose to announce his and ask for opinions. Those ideas not in-line with yours are no better or worse then yours... You (and others) actually may hurt the OP by going off topic IMHO...

well Vguerin i know you've played this game a long time, longer than most. you know it inside and out. you know what was tested long ago and you know what is reality now IG. you and your guild have held a q250 OP ever since the day the OPs came live and you are, i'm sure, quite deserving of that givin you time IG and testing in the betas and what not.

the thing that myself and countless others are wondering is when are OPs going to be available to those who do not currently have them? and are upgrades ever going to be available to guilds who have outgrown their current ones?

seems theres a growing number who wish they could take part in the OP system, growing as guilds and wanting to either aquire a new OP or upgrade their current one, but the problem they run into is the faction side of it. OPs are at a complete stalemate at the moment. noone can any longer attack an OP and win. the defense is so broad that the "KA" or any other alliance on atys right now cannot take an OP.

so where does that leave OPs? in your long time IG and infinite wisdome of this game Vguerin, can you put yourself in the shoes of another long enough to think what its like to never have a chance ever of getting an OP and what possible remedy you would have for that? I for one would like to hear the ideas of that, without sarcasm or critisism of the question itself

[d1sco123]

Umm, I'm just a newbie, but haven't outposts not been in-game for all that long? I mean, what did anyone do before outposts? And aren't the outposts there in part to give an incentive to PvP? One of the things about this game that blows my mind is that even when dealing with a PvP situation, everyone seems to take it all in stride. Except on the forums, where PvP flamer wars seem to rule the day. Any chance all that could be put aside to acknowledge that each side of this pseudo-conflict have valid points? PvP players want to feel rewarded for doing PvP. PvE players should also have the same opportunity to feel rewarded, but the real question raised by the original poster was essentially "What do you think of this possible solution to the conflict?"

Personally, I think the idea of a PvE outpost is intriguing. But (and I hate to admit this) Raynes has a point. Mobs will never be as intelligent or as skillful as a human player can be, so PvP players face a greater challenge. So expecting to give PvE players the same rewards for less challenge tends to cheapen the point of PvP a bit.

So what might be a suitable reward for PvE players? Well, other games have always come up with rewards for doing quests, or killing specific mobs, or participating in events. But those can't work, because there are players out there that don't want to see this game become WoW or EQ, understandably.

Basically, we have two sides to the big issue, which is how to make the player-run economy stay a player-run economy. Those that feel it should stay a player-run economy then fight about whether PvP should give rewards or not. Obviously, there's a side that can argue that the game was fine before outposts, so there shouldn't be outposts. But then there's a side that wants PvP, but loves Ryzom, and thinks the outposts are important to their enjoyment of the game.

I've found myself in the latter of those groups, though I'm not normally a big fan of PvP. This is because PvP in Ryzom is fun, plain and simple. I challenge everyone to go out and actually give PvP a try for themselves, against friends, guildmates, whoever. Give it a solid consideration and try. Those that still don't like PvP, and want this game to stay as it always was... go back to what you were doing before outposts. Otherwise, be ready for raidable content and large-scale dungeons with loot drops from bosses.

Of course, if I'm making assumptions about what players as a whole think, or used to think, please understand I'm still new to this game and I'm trying to gauge the opinions of the community based on the forums, which are typically places where people go to be reactionary.

[vguerin]

so where does that leave OPs?

This is an entirely different can o' worms... Unfortunately history shows us it may be easier to get them to add things than fix them. Thing are typically added months later than promised and usually without many of the things we have asked for or they advertised... but it still can be faster than getting things fixed.

I am not in the least thrilled with current implementation, but as you stated Melinoe has been around awhile and with our allies have managed to fend off all attacks to date. Guilds don't have OP's because they love PvP, but it is the only current way to achieve them. Battles are fought of necessity, not for fun (they can be fun but it's because of the people, not the game mechanics). I am sure most everyone holding an OP would agree there should be changes, it's how those changes are made that will make the biggest impact.

There must be a risk/reward in all OP's as well as a way for guilds to "upgrade" if thats what they are looking to do... Nobody is saying there shouldn't be PvE OP's as much as they are concerned about poor implementation...

[raynes]

I've thought about this PvE idea and a question comes to mind that I have yet to see an answer.

Lets say they do put this in. My guild goes along and fights to get one of 20 PvE outposts available to the game. I win and I become owner of the outpost. Then another person comes along and wants the outpost also, what happens? Are they out of luck as I already have it?

If that is the case then what happens when the 20 PvE outposts are taken up by guilds? How do newer guilds get to own one?

[iwojimmy]

.....
If that is the case then what happens when the 20 PvE outposts are taken up by guilds? How do newer guilds get to own one?

i thought the original proposal covered that.. and fairly well, too.

to save you the obvious effort of reading the post, I shall recap

If you get a PvE OP, there will be ongoing costs, which will escalate, until you CANNOT meet them. At this point you will lose the OP, and another guild gets to have a go.

So every guild may not own an OP all the time, but they certainly have the chance to get one sometime.

and while I dont like being excluded from 'content', there is still the requirement that some things be earned - that you actually make an effort instead of just getting stuff handed to you.
Otherwise just include a free cat generator with every Guild Hall

[iwojimmy]

So what you want are OP's that give the same reward as the PvP op's, without the threat of players attacking? Then what exactly is the benefit of the PvP outposts? Why would anyone bother to fight over them when you can get the same thing elsewhere?

Outpost content = PvP content. It's really that simple.

Why do some people think PvP needs rewards ?

PvP is the reward you get from PvP

People whinged and moaned about not having enough PvP in game, and now they have it, and they're getting paid for it too !!

If Player versus Player is what you want and enjoy, then take it and be grateful. But then to say "but this is ours too, you cant have it unless you do what we want" is selfish, self centred and immature.

The suggestion was an attempt to broaden the appeal of the game, to give players more options. This is what we need. Not trying to squeeze the game down into some bipolar nuke-em-up.

[dollly]

add enough op's and all can have one... simple answer to simple problem

(afterthought) why not make ops sharable,there are extra building pads at every op, let 3 guilds share the wealth
my 2 dapper's worth

[kokunze]

I've thought about this PvE idea and a question comes to mind that I have yet to see an answer.

Lets say they do put this in. My guild goes along and fights to get one of 20 PvE outposts available to the game. I win and I become owner of the outpost. Then another person comes along and wants the outpost also, what happens? Are they out of luck as I already have it?

If that is the case then what happens when the 20 PvE outposts are taken up by guilds? How do newer guilds get to own one?

Did you read the text?
If so, then you should have noticed that the outpost is attacked constantly. Each time more attackers come. So you cannot hold it forever.

[danlufan]

LOL, this from the guy who quotes "teh original concept" in his sig. Dont you remember the originally proposed outposts were supposed to include stuff like this?

PvP ONLY content is exclusive to a small subsection of the players. Heck, I was gonna post to the original poster that I think this is too harsh on the non-PvPers since they have to do more work to keep their OP than certain PvPers... After all, weekly battles and escalating costs instead of monthly battles at the same old cost?

PvP doesnt deserve "perks" exclusive to _just_ pvpers, since it makes the rest of the players (a majority no less), 2nd class citizens effectively. Unless you wish to propose Non-PvP perks of a different kind for everyone who avoids PvP...

every area of the game gets perks, its like having a pvp alternative to all the other stuff! Crafting rites should there be a PvP alternative?