Thanks Nevrax!

Come in, pull up a chair, let's discuss all things Ryzom-related.
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thebax
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Re: Thanks Nevrax!

Post by thebax »

oauitam wrote:Firtstly, if this is nothing to do with healing then we're way off topic.



Secondly, it's pretty much arbitrary what level of mob is designed to be equal to what level of player. And it certainly isn't our decision to make.

If you want to decide that you think a mob which drops ql 100 mats (the players' own commonest definition of mob level) fighting a solo player with no skill over 100 with level 100 gear should result in a 50-50 win ratio or whatever then go for it.

In any case, I think you've pretty much got to bump up the mobs damage, hp and armour to get that to work. If we were 'balanced' to that extent, and I still often lost, then I'm a moron. I'd be ashamed if an AI with all identical stats to my character provided an even fight. Well, either ashamed or immensely impressed with the improvements in AI.



Thirdly, as a brute fact, there are very few mobs that I can solo which drop mats of the same QL as my character's highest skill level. That's simply an observation of the way Atys currently is.

I could say that it shouldn't be like that. The word 'should' projects some sort of morality onto the situation that simply doesn't exist. It's not right or wrong that this is how the world is.

If you think that it'd be more fun if you could solo mobs like that easily then that is what you should be saying. "Dear Nevrax, I think it'd be more fun if we could solo mobs that drop mats with a QL equal to our highest skill level."

There is no moral law that the game is breaking. I doubt you've discovered something that either Nevrax don't know, or that they do know and are ignoring while accepting it is morally wrong.

If they don't know how mobs and players typically stack up, one on one, then tell them and add in what you think would be more fun.
If they do know then I'd imagine they just disagree with you on the fun factor (as I do).
Xenofur's confusion of my statement that early level melee was easy was the bit that had nothing to do with healing.

I do think that it is our decision to make, as players. We are in charge, so long as we pay the bill.

I do not see it as a moral question, although it may well shade into ethics, as it is a question of fair-play.

It should result in a 50/50 win ratio if you are exactly equal to the mob's level, and you are using materials equal to those rendered by the creature you are fighting. Our intelligence vs. the AI, and having better equipment should give us the edge, as it does in RL.

They are, I believe, aware that they have over-powered the mobs. This is likely a misguided atempt to increase the player-base size, by making teaming past certain levels mandatory. However, even when it is possible to solo, having additional members in your team is beneficial. If, in a team= size X, you are recieving 1000xp per minute, but solo, you are getting an avg of 3000xp every 5 minutes because of less damage and regen time, you are obviously better off in a group.

Would a fair fight be what everyone wants? Even though fighting or nuking is far from my favorite thing, I do enjoy the occaisonal skin-of-the-teeth victory (or sometimes loss) with a named or boss, with commeasurate rewards for victory. For those that enjoy the fighting in and of itself, rather than a means to an end, balanced mobs would not be as fun, so long as they continued to equip themselves with good to ideal gear. Even balanced, a mob such as a ploderos would be a significant challenge to anyone of equal level, if they fought without armor, wielding a mace.

As was said before, if the mobs were balanced with players, everyone would have the option of the type of PvE experience they desired. With mobs at the uber-state they currently occupy, a fair number of us are forcibly excluded.
blaah
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Re: Thanks Nevrax!

Post by blaah »

thebax wrote:... as well as it's version of stun, which homins have no access to (ours goes kaput as soon as we do anything, theirs allows (multiple) attacks),..
kipee stun is critical hit to head. no magic here
it would be interesting to know if crit. hit to head from homin to homin in duel/pvp will stun same as kipee or not.
.. and kipee dont use jewels ;-) he just has natural resist (i would not call this unbalance)

you should compare homins to npc's not mobs and there i agree.. npc's are overpowered (no sap/stam/ammo/spell range limit)
npc lvl IS (or should be) homin lvl
mob lvl IS NOT (and should not be) homin lvl
edit: mob's should be (they are ?) balanced to groups of players
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alibasil
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Re: Thanks Nevrax!

Post by alibasil »

thebax wrote:Xenofur's confusion of my statement that early level melee was easy was the bit that had nothing to do with healing.

I do think that it is our decision to make, as players. We are in charge, so long as we pay the bill.

I do not see it as a moral question, although it may well shade into ethics, as it is a question of fair-play.

It should result in a 50/50 win ratio if you are exactly equal to the mob's level, and you are using materials equal to those rendered by the creature you are fighting. Our intelligence vs. the AI, and having better equipment should give us the edge, as it does in RL.

They are, I believe, aware that they have over-powered the mobs. This is likely a misguided atempt to increase the player-base size, by making teaming past certain levels mandatory. However, even when it is possible to solo, having additional members in your team is beneficial. If, in a team= size X, you are recieving 1000xp per minute, but solo, you are getting an avg of 3000xp every 5 minutes because of less damage and regen time, you are obviously better off in a group.

Would a fair fight be what everyone wants? Even though fighting or nuking is far from my favorite thing, I do enjoy the occaisonal skin-of-the-teeth victory (or sometimes loss) with a named or boss, with commeasurate rewards for victory. For those that enjoy the fighting in and of itself, rather than a means to an end, balanced mobs would not be as fun, so long as they continued to equip themselves with good to ideal gear. Even balanced, a mob such as a ploderos would be a significant challenge to anyone of equal level, if they fought without armor, wielding a mace.

As was said before, if the mobs were balanced with players, everyone would have the option of the type of PvE experience they desired. With mobs at the uber-state they currently occupy, a fair number of us are forcibly excluded.
Ahem... Thanx Nevrax!!
Alibooma

Was Sleeping... Is now Awake!
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iphdrunk
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Re: Thanks Nevrax!

Post by iphdrunk »

thebax wrote: so many people complained that Baxter's ergot was too difficult to understand.

eh? wot ergot dey'canna unstend? I be shok'd, beh, all'em felas canna talk! I jus neededs couple o'months ina speak somewot fluen....
Anissa - Jena's Lost Tribe -

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rhynox
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Re: Thanks Nevrax!

Post by rhynox »

I wonder how many lost hours of leveling (productivity at the job too I'm betting) have taken place with everyone reading/posting in the forums. I sure wish people were so chatty cathy in game might actually get some friggan region chat goin like how it used to be.
Rhynox ~ One of two blues in a sea of shortness........Ballistic Mystix

First day in the new lands......"lol, I was running from a pack of Kinchers and ran into a pack of Karavan"
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aelvana
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Re: Thanks Nevrax!

Post by aelvana »

If mobs were easier to solo, then any of us could group up with a healer to make the EXP fly by at a crazy rate. You simply can't have proper balance for both solo and groups.

So ... isn't it really a question of whether we'd rather have A) solo being impractical, or B) group EXP being utterly cheesy and broken ... ?

Given that choice, I'd much rather see solo be impractical and group EXP be balanced.
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thebax
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Re: Thanks Nevrax!

Post by thebax »

aelvana wrote:If mobs were easier to solo, then any of us could group up with a healer to make the EXP fly by at a crazy rate. You simply can't have proper balance for both solo and groups.

So ... isn't it really a question of whether we'd rather have A) solo being impractical, or B) group EXP being utterly cheesy and broken ... ?

Given that choice, I'd much rather see solo be impractical and group EXP be balanced.
I am sorry, but I must disagree.

Currently, only the group that, for whatever reason, is ok with being forced into a mode/pattern of behavior is being satisfied.

For me, and those like me, hunting is a means to an end, whether it be more health, better defense, an emergancy nuke, aquisition of specific materials so that we may either test crafting theories or make things for are friends, or even just a more powerful heal, so that it takes less time to rez people, and we can get back to our digging. Hunting is not the end itself.

There are times when I have only a half-hour or so to play, and by the time a team is gathered, and we reach our destination, I am down to 5-10 minutes. In addition, I dislike anyone telling me what to do, especially when it is pointless. Such as where and when I may heal who I choose, or that I must have the support of a small army to do a good days hunt. That also completely breaks my suspension of dis-belief.

In the right season, when my back is ok enough, I go hunting. I do so to supply myself and a few friends with meat. I usually hunt deer. They are larger, stronger, and very much faster than I am, with natural weapons in the form of antlers (I only hunt bucks) and hooves as sharp as razors. They are superior in almost every way, and yet, they are my food, because I have two advantages. At least average human intelligence, and superior equipment. In addition, I kill them by myself. I know you are supposed to use the buddy system, but other people tend to make too much noise.

Basically, with the support of foragers(miners and chemists), and crafters(the gunsmith and people who made my clothing), I am able to solo a creature of a much higher level than myself. Bringing the comparison even closer to Ryzom, I load my own rounds, to save money :p .

What I hear those who support the uber-mob statis-quo saying is that as long as their group is happy, all is right with the world. If the mobs are balanced, both sides would be satisfied. Those who either because of time constraints, personality, or lack of in game connections are soloists would be able to do so. Those who enjoy hunting as an end in and of itself would be able to do so, by using lower-quality gear, or less than optimum types of attacks, completely able to adjust the level of challenge until it hit their thrill-range.

I see no harm in making everyone happy, as it is within capability.

To tie it all together with regard to the healing nerf, balancing the mobs would eliminate the deleterious impact of the nerf on PvE, while leaving the PvP alone.
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micrix
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Re: Thanks Nevrax!

Post by micrix »

thebax wrote: What I hear those who support the uber-mob statis-quo saying is that as long as their group is happy, all is right with the world. If the mobs are balanced, both sides would be satisfied. Those who either because of time constraints, personality, or lack of in game connections are soloists would be able to do so. Those who enjoy hunting as an end in and of itself would be able to do so, by using lower-quality gear, or less than optimum types of attacks, completely able to adjust the level of challenge until it hit their thrill-range.

I see no harm in making everyone happy, as it is within capability.

To tie it all together with regard to the healing nerf, balancing the mobs would eliminate the deleterious impact of the nerf on PvE, while leaving the PvP alone.
First time i hear it this way from you and it makes much more sense for me now.

I forgot about this when reaching 165 elemental. This time i recognized that i never will be able to solo every mob (and i am not counting in adds here) and therefor can not explore the most part of Atys on my own or hunt for a couple of mats to craft something i want to try out.

I d like to but my main time to play is little out of sync with others. I also agree with you that it is awful hard to find a team for xp-less hunts and exploration. Until now i blamed it on me, cause i stayed guildless, but now you mention it as guilded player makes me wonder.

For exploring i just try to be a better sneaker every time i go for a walk the rest i just accepted, cause i could not blame the game for my playtime or not being in a guild.
Psylo - Tryker and Homin
Shinto Digging Ltd.
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typing errors are intended and ment for entertainment
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aelvana
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Re: Thanks Nevrax!

Post by aelvana »

thebax wrote:I am sorry, but I must disagree.

...

There are times when I have only a half-hour or so to play, and by the time a team is gathered, and we reach our destination, I am down to 5-10 minutes. In addition, I dislike anyone telling me what to do, especially when it is pointless. Such as where and when I may heal who I choose, or that I must have the support of a small army to do a good days hunt. That also completely breaks my suspension of dis-belief.

...

What I hear those who support the uber-mob statis-quo saying is that as long as their group is happy, all is right with the world. If the mobs are balanced, both sides would be satisfied. Those who either because of time constraints, personality, or lack of in game connections are soloists would be able to do so. Those who enjoy hunting as an end in and of itself would be able to do so, by using lower-quality gear, or less than optimum types of attacks, completely able to adjust the level of challenge until it hit their thrill-range.

I see no harm in making everyone happy, as it is within capability.
I know just what you mean about having little playtime, and not wanting to pursue the game by means of pushing the limits and working the system. The issue is that they're two different games, and not really compatible. I disagree that everyone can be made happy. Gamers like myself wouldn't use lower quality gear for a challenge -- we'd end up forming teams with tank+healer+DPS, and working the system as best we can, flying through the EXP and growing quickly bored. Hence our desire for a game that would challenge the more hardcore video gamers. Neither play style is more noble, or more right, but different, and just as fun to the right people.

I guess another good question would be what kind of game is Ryzom? Surely you want it to be the kind of game you like, and I want it to be the kind of game I like just the same.
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