Do we really need PvP?

[drizzeth]

In reply to drizzeth's post #374-

I wasn't talking about supreme, or even excellent mats. Never mentioned them. I only mentioned choice. Even with a full team guarding a digger, when the digger dies they lose all mats. One-shot kills the digger. A KP will often wipe out a full group of 250 folks all dressed for battle. LIKE I SAID: not difficult, impossible.

The fact is, Neverax's insistance (and short-sighted players support of same) on over-powered mobs has created the requirement for people who need to make things for others with PR mats to do their harvesting in PvP zones. This renders those zones non-consensual, and I am sick and tired of people making any claim to the contrary, as such is complete and total bull.

Start sociopathic behavior on an underlying chemical imbalnce, an unhappy love-life, a lack of years, or the fact that the moyle slipped, but such feeble excuses for murder are an insult to anyone with basic reasoning skills.

Where did all this come from? I think this reaction might be a bit over the top, maybe indeed you are too tired from discussing this stuff over and over

FYI:
i was talking about choice aswell.On that subject, excellent is not comparable to surface when we talk about how large the chance is to relatively safe and very easily forage large amounts of excellent as compared to surface, Another balance mechanism.

And i think Anders was quite fond of KP hunting and there are a lot of PR diggers that learned to avoid the KP or take the mats and DP and be hapy about it Im certainly not one to sneak past, but i am one to contently take my DP which is my payment for supreme materials(or choice materials that are good for any design plan, any race)

All in all i was just pointing out how Atys as i understood from beta till now was meant to be a harsh enviroment and that prime roots should be hard to balance the advantage of generic useable materials. And that everything strongly encourages you to do almost everything in team. Or other social skills lke buying materials fro a PR forager that isa PRO at evading the KP

Also i think that im not so much giving my view of Atys but how i understood they designed it.(the part about harsh and the need for grouping for everything and the overly powered mobs)

EDIT: neither am i saying Nevrax has the balance right for everything

EDIT2: Maybe, just maybe the point is even more to finetune the balance of mobs and KP in non-pvp areas instead of refusing the pvp areas? So to make the non-pvp prime roots a realistically viable option to people while not trying to imbalance by making supreme/Generic-usable too easy too obtain.

[michielb]

The place for coming up with good outpost models is here, not only for getting the interested players' input but also for the slim chance of a dev looking for opinions on good outpost models.

I always assumed it was one outpost per guild until posters on the Outposts Outlined thread made me realise other players had assumed otherwise. Whatever the actuality, one outpost per guild solves your worry.

It seems fair to say that whether, and if so how, Ryzom needs outposts is independent of 'do we need PvP'.

That.....Outposts Outlined is hardly a good outpost model...

My guess would be that nevrax tries to elimenate grief play through this model but it takes the fun right out of it...

It has so many flaws it makes me cry.
First of all, are we talking land control battles or soccer game here? It is so over formalised it's not a battle at all, it a game and it kills all immersion.

Next we have 4 (!) hours to either take an outpost or lose the battle, how many people will stick around that long?

This model in no way changes the fact that it will always be the biggest army that will take the cake. Like in most RTS games all you need to do is to get as many people on the battlefield and you just can't lose. (In this case you will have to convince them to stick around for hours.)

So in all likelyhood it will be the biggest, baddest guilds holding the nicest ouposts and what's left (if any) will be for the little guys. New players just entering the game will have to sign up with existing guilds if they want an outpost or hope that maybe someday the guild they freshly started will be strong enough to compete with the veterans...

If Nevrax had taken a close look at how funcom desined their "outposts" they would have known what this would ammount to, but then maybe they have because a lot of this reminds me of the "notum wars"

Now I agree with the war declaration. I agree with the preparation period though I'm not sure about the time and I'm also a bit worried about the fact that we have several different timezones on this server....(a lot of fun to find you'll have to defend your outpost at a time you'd rather be sleeping....)
The rest of the model is pure merde (pardon my french)

(If anyone is interessted I might try to go into detail about that in an oter thread)

The outposts we were promised had much more depth and weren't nearly as PvP oriented as the ones we seem to be getting. There used to be guild fame involved and outpost officers, guild missions and diplomacy. What happened to all those great idea's? Were they all sacrificed in favour of the lamest of sollutions to satisfy the investors? Was all the creativity that went into creation this wonderfull game universe kicked out of the window?

Now I can live with this unimaginative implementation of land control but I'm very,very worried if the same uninspired approuch is applied to global FvF. Once again I have to refer to Anarchy Online as the proposed FvF has many things in common with the way PvP in handled in that game. The PvP flag in AO worked like a charm and gankers had a great time killing flagged people trying to buy health kits before returning to the battle (either attacking or defending their "outpost")
It appears the PvP flag in SoR will be working in much the same way....

The impossibility of neutrality...

Is it possible to be truly neutral when SoR goes full FvF? Well if neutrals don't want outposts then I guess you can...Should neutrals be allowed to PvP? true neutrals should, should they? So can neutrals be PvP flagged? Can they own outposts?
In AO there were, like in SoR, two factions defined in the story line but effectively the game ended up with three, again just like in SoR.
Karavan, Neutral, Kami. What's the neutral gonna do on Atys? Logic and lore dictate they can't fight so they can't hold an outpost as they can't defend them or can they?

In this thread there have been people who said that consentual PvP was acceptable and normally I would have to agree. But what I've seen about FvF as it is planned to be implemented on Atys in the near (or not so near) future, then I would have to say: "no, thank you"

So to answer the question "do we (the SoR community) need PvP (in the form that is suggested by Nevrax) then I say: NO

NO we do not need a poor copy of an attempt to make PvP work in an MMO!

com'on Nevrax you can do better than this....

[mrshad]

But what I've seen about FvF as it is planned to be implemented on Atys in the near (or not so near) future, then I would have to say: "no, thank you"

So to answer the question "do we (the SoR community) need PvP (in the form that is suggested by Nevrax) then I say: NO

NO we do not need a poor copy of an attempt to make PvP work in an MMO!

com'on Nevrax you can do better than this....

How would you prefer it?

I am genuinely curious. You seem to have seen you share of MMOs. Seriously, what do you think would work?

Do you prefere the attack anywhere, anyone, anytime model of Shadwbane?

Or perhaps the Realm V Realm fun of DAOC?

Niether of the two? Perhaps something all together different?

I would be interested in knowing how you would make it so that "this time, it will work".

[rushin]

In reply to drizzeth's post #374-

I wasn't talking about supreme, or even excellent mats. Never mentioned them. I only mentioned choice. And when attempting to get said higher grade mats, even with a full team guarding a digger, when the digger dies they lose all mats. One-shot kills the digger. A KP will often wipe out a full group of 250 folks all dressed for battle. LIKE I SAID: not difficult, impossible.

The fact is, Neverax's insistance (and short-sighted players support of same) on over-powered mobs has created the requirement for people who need to make things for others with PR mats to do their harvesting in PvP zones. This renders those zones non-consensual, and I am sick and tired of people making any claim to the contrary, as such is complete and total bull.

Start blaming sociopathic behavior on an underlying chemical imbalance, an unhappy love-life, a lack of years, or the fact that the moyle slipped, but such feeble excuses for murder are an insult to anyone with basic reasoning skills.

what are u talking about baxter???? I am a pr digger, as are loads of others, dont think i have ever seen u there. there is no problem with digging in pr, tbh i would like to see it harder. The point is to be able to dig there you have to spend a long time getting used to it, compared to anywhere else it seems impossible but thats far from the truth. You might not believe but here is a true story.. last week Sprite had an order for mats, we went to wastelands and i dug for him 250 shu, 160 sap, 160 oil. took under 2 hours, and want to know how many times we died?? ONCE! (1 digger, 1 care planner, no amps, jewels, weapons, army of mercs backing us up)

if you are going to make such bold statements then have some experience about what you speak please.

thanks _)

sorry another edit: we were down a few hours after a server reboot which meant there were many, many more aggro mobs running around slaughtering everything, even then its not difficult!

[michielb]

How would you prefer it?

I am genuinely curious. You seem to have seen you share of MMOs. Seriously, what do you think would work?

Do you prefere the attack anywhere, anyone, anytime model of Shadwbane?

Or perhaps the Realm V Realm fun of DAOC?

Niether of the two? Perhaps something all together different?

I would be interested in knowing how you would make it so that "this time, it will work".

Fraid there's no simple answer, if it was easy it would have been done allready...

As it is late and I don't feel like making an other long post but I do have a few idea's that would make consentual PvP or FvF a bit more interesting but I'm afraid there's no way to counter all the forms of grief play that any kind of PvP in an MMO enables.

As to my idea's...

all wars end sooner or later...


PvP gets stale after a while because there are no winners or losers...


ponder on that.....

[sprite]

(1 digger, 1 care planner, no amps, jewels, weapons, army of mercs backing us up)

Just to be clear, thats a "no amps, no hp jewels, no weapons, no army of mercs..." And I forget why we died, so don't ask.

Oh and the PR in question was Wastelands. I think most people would agree that WL is the "worst" non-PvP PR in terms of insane amounts of aggro.

[basicart]

Just to be clear, thats a "no amps, no hp jewels, no weapons, no army of mercs..." And I forget why we died, so don't ask.

Oh and the PR in question was Wastelands. I think most people would agree that WL is the "worst" non-PvP PR in terms of insane amounts of aggro.

Nope Ichor worce by far and its only a 200 zone yet theres purple mobs and far more agro

IF all the resources available in PvP zones were available in non-PvP zones. They are? Hit US and get me 200 Shu fiber, 200 Moon resin, 100 Gulatch oil, and 100 Visc sap, all Q250, but choice grade is good enough, you have one hour.

Bax get me that amount / type from any zone in game in a hour and ill be very impressed.

[thebax]

Rushin-

/ignoring the tone of the post, and the crack about my supposed lack of experience.

So...

What you're saying is that given your level, the time you spent and the presence of a CPer, you managed to get around 2/7ths of what you should have.
And you died.

I suppose I should thank you for proving my point

[thebax]

Basic-

I was saying 600 mats in one hour. A master digger can pull 1040 mats in an hour, with the help of a CPer. Travel time, however, might put the kibosh on my statement, as I have yet to find all the listed types in adjacent fields. Therefore, you may well be correct, it might be an unfair challenge.

[kwhopper]

Yes, SoR really needs PvP.