Petition to unban Doubletap from forum and klients

[saeri]

It would appear I struck a nerve.

Of course, now I am being characterized as either drunk ("your going to hit the poor woman sitting to the left of the dart board, drinking a double wisky"), childish, overreacting, or lying.

I did not make up the quotes I used. As proof of their content and context, I refere you to this pair of posts:
http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.p ... ostcount=7
http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.p ... stcount=19

I would also point out the amount of support those posts generated.
But, that isn't the topic here, I only bring it up in this post to demonstrate that my remarks were not "unfounded"
I stated the problem in my first post as part of the dynamic of the Fanboi/CSR clique...something I veiw as quite relevant to the topic.

Did DT post some things in anger that were not entirely appropriate? By his own admission, he did.

Have others done just as much without even a repremand? Well...I guess that depends on your point of view, and this sort of judgement is, by its very nature, subjective. But, I think the preponderance of evidence shows that certain players get much more latidute than others.

DoubleTap has made his case, documented with links and screen shots. The CS team implies that DT is a liar by stating his story is one-sided, misrepresented, or at the very least; he misunderstood. That response would be fine if any evidence at all were presented as justification, but it is not, nor will it be. Silence in this matter is just too convienent.

What shadowweb said was enough for me to make a decision. period.

[myseren]

and how exactly would they be presenting evidence?
breaking customer confidentiality?

just for the record, i am not on anyones 'side' here. Unless we get both sides of the story in full (which is pretty much impossible imo) there is no way of knowing who is in the right.

[memiki]

Good Point Madnak but is it stated he is banned permanently. I guess I missed that. if he quits that is permanent but that will be his choice

Also is the post copy and pasted in entirely.

Also, is everyone saying that because something is not changed over night that you should stomp you feet and say, do it now. That because you don't like something you should start a vendetta against the CSR who you talked to.

There are personality conflicts everywhere through out life. You avoid them. If you were offended, do you not think, what did I do to cause this. Perhaps everyone had a bad day. Do you always have really great days where you are polite and don't get an attitude. I sure don't

I believe Zerlin answered to the best of his abilities that is what he was told about the bug. So does that mean you have to keep picking it and picking it to death.

The horse is dead now stop beating it to a pulp.

I am from Windermeeer and there were also problems there. This is a game people.

I have a 6 month sub to Matrix on line. I could not sign into game because of problems, it took, them 3 weeks to get to me with a auto reply if you are still having this problem please reply. Doh I was not on line
that was just to even answer me.

there are problems in all games. yes I realize, it has gone on for what did DT say 3 months, everyone wants devs to do this, change that, fix this, add this. Where do you start, it is impossible to fix everything at once and it it is as intended it isn't going to get fixed.

Everyone needs to just go on and enjoy the game. Think on your own and not be lead by others.

[vinnyq]

mrshad, can I eat that chip on your shoulders? I am hungry.

Oh, and what did DT cut out of his post? wut did he say that was "rude"? I missed the original thread.

[suib0m]

I love the post, memiki. I wasn't gonna bother posting to this thread, but wanted to emphasize the things you stated. Most important, regarding the issue that has been blown so far outta porportion it's silly, is that the support crew are not the devs. I'm sure anyone who works tech support can tell you that there are often enough times that they simply relay information from the powers that be. They have no power to change that situation aside from relaying the responses/reactions back to the powers that be. It has been stated that the issue is "working as intended". You think this is the support staff just pulling your chain?? Does that really make sense?

If the player base does not like the way critters are acting "as intended", why not start a level headed feedback discussion about the situation with offers of potential replacement behavior. Anyway, by and large the only dissatisfied things I've heard about the support staff have come from folks with personal agendas or mob-mentality responses. To a much larger degree have been positive responses to the efforts of the CSR team in general.

- Suibom

Not signed.

dont' get me wrong on this, cause I have always liked DT and considered him a friend. He has saved me on many occasions. I have even stuck up for him in a former guild.

But this is now more of a personal issue. It is more like a vendetta against Zerlin.

Ok, let me put as I understand it. DT puts a ticket in about a bug cause he was upset it got him killed. understand. I get upset at least 3-4 times a day when I get killed. and that is on a slow day.

ok, his bug ticket is answered. and he gets told as everyone seems to love repeating over and over. "it is working as intended".

Ok, now I have grandchildren who when things don't go their way will stomp their feet and say I want it this way. This is what it is beginning to look like

DT doesn't like the intended way. If it is the Dev's decision then what can you do.

I was in Kilent the day that Zerlin told DT to desist. I felt he was very polite. Dt would not stop. Zerlin is not a Dev. what did DT want him to do change the problem. He was trying to tell DT but DT was not going to listen.

The few times I have had contact with the CSR's from the EE server, I have been treated with respect and politeness. I have seen them in game, which is really nice, they are talking to people. Which I never saw in the Themis group.

Do not drag in this merge thing. That is over and done with, other than my opinion it was the best thing in the world. I have made many friends and it is awesome. There is absoultely no reason to drag this in. No one has ever been disrespectful to me. If you have had a problem with anyone, have you thought maybe about your attitude toward them.

Also no use dragging in comparison between Themis and the Jolt team. The ones who are complaining in my opinon are the ones who were top dogs in that Kilent. I was ignored many times. naturally some will always be talked to more than others it is natural. some are on more than others so those will be recognized quicker.

Then to put a petition out when no one knows what went down except DT and Zerlin is wrong. You are asking people to blindly sign something only because they like someone and not because of the reasons it was done. This is their problem and no one else should get involved. If DT was so upset how do you know he didn't overreact

I understand DT doesn't like the statement "it is as intended" but maybe I realize this is farfetched, but maybe there is a plan later on that this will show why it is done. How about waiting to see. In the meantime if you don't like it stay away from the jugulas that is easy.

Ok, Basic I am waiting.

[marct]

I think the crazy part of ll of this is that no one thinks banning someone from posting on the forums or using the out of game support tool is a problem.

What does this accomplish? In my opinion with no facts or no judging, it is plainly saying that we do not want you to be able to do 2 things.

1. You can now not get support outside of the game in a timely manner.
2. You cannot post your opinions or views, or participate in the community unless it is in game.

What is the goal of this, and what does it help? If DT was to have done some truly bannable offense? Would he not have been kicked out of the game completely?

I just do not understand the punishment. Can someone help me?

Noin. (the missing)

[grimjim]

>I just do not understand the punishment. Can someone help me?

That someone being abusive and disruptive (most likely) has been removed from the places they were being abusive and disruptive?

Isn't that a good thing?

[glipe]

Actually racist speech is constitutionally protected free speech in the US. Actions based on racism such as discrimination in jobs or housing can be illegal. Slander is not illegal in the US but you can be sued by the person(s) defamed.

<sigh> Ok, I'm petty, I'll go there.

Slander and libel are two forms of defamation (as in "of character"). In much the same way as if you walked over to someone and punched them in the face they don't have to press charges, so defamation is illegal but has to be brought up as an issue rather than the offender facing immediate prosecution. AFAIK.

Racist speech (or any form of hate speech) is indeed protected under the First Ammendment but only if it doesn't impinge on others. If it does impinge, it's illegal and has had rulings set down by the Supreme Court as an interpretation of the First Ammendment (and 14th, since the First actually only applies to federal congress without this addition). For an example of this, see the 1978 ruling in Collin vs Smith in Skokie, Illinois. While the National Socialist Party of America were allowed to march and speak in front of the Village Hall, they would not have been allowed to do so if they had wanted to speak in front of the homes of the mainly Jewish community (one of the significant rulings in current interpretation of the First Ammendment).

I fully expected someone to say something about my post. It was just an example. On here there are other rules which also apply.

[glipe]

To run through a few of the thoughts here; an email or a one off post is very unlikely to result in a forum/klient suspension - that will just result in a conversation to sort out any issues. It takes quite an accumulation of problems to kick in that kind of suspension. It is also not a decision a GM or CSR takes. It is easy for players to jump to conclusions as you don't always see what goes on behind the scenes.

Is the information that is "out there" complete? No. Has some of it been misunderstood? Almost certainly. Are wheels still in motion? Yes. Once toys stop being thrown out of prams based on misrepresentations and misunderstandings we can move to clear all this up.

I don't know about the rest of you but this cleared everything up enough for me. One, it's a "higher power" decision, not GM's. Two, we haven't got the full picture (as expected). And three, they are attempting to sort things out. Seems fair enough and I'll wait patiently for the conclusion.

Great post Glipe!
I was thinking the same thing, but i could not write it down as nice as you did!

/bow

Thank you. <blush> I'm glad someone approved of the sentiment without taking issue about the phrases used to voice it.

[soulsnatcher]

OK to clear up a few things I'm gonna go through all the posts on here and try and clear up any queries raised without breaching confidentialities or data protection rules.

he was apparently banned for sending in an e-mail regarding dealing with one of the GMs.

No, while it was a matter of unfortunate timing a suspension was not put in place for any emails.

at least let the guy know that he was banned and what for

Conversations took place before the suspension, and after and are indeed ongoing

In America we have a constitutional guarantee of free speech. Though it distresses our present administration we will not give this right up easily. To silence any voice, to quell any discussion is not something that should be undertaken lightly and I think taking this step is a tragic mistake, not just against Doubletap, but against ANYONE.

Writing letters of complaint does not count as harassment in my book, but then I am a professional customer services representative irl so perhaps I see things differently. I feel that if a consumer is so frustrated by the service or lack thereof that I have given that they go to my boss, it is I who have failed... I did not communicate effectively enough. Stuffing a sock in thier mouth does not solve the problem.

No one has asked you to give up your freedom of speech and I don't recall seeing anywhere that correspondence with the players is harrassment. Indeed many many times in the past we have encouraged it. The suspension is to allow us to clear everything up without more people getting wrapped up in it.

Was wondering.... does the code of coduct just rule for players?

No. CSRs have many more rules to adhere to then you guys, plus we have laws we have to abide by.

Specifically, was this banning discussed and approved within the CS team? If this decision was an exception and made by one person as DT alleges, I would request that the CS team review the decision and documentation of the violations and warnings. (I assume you document the violations internally as the basis of these team-based decisions.)

There is a very strict procedure to be followed for any suspensions/bans, more than most people realise. And yes, it was followed to the letter on this one. It is not one person's call and all matters are investigated regardless of who is involved.

Lastly, in case one of us has our emotions run rampant one day and we get banned, what is the process for undoing a ban? Do you have a policy that allows the offender to return to the forums after some time or some action or both?

Easy one, come talk to us. The CSR team here has banned very, very few people (you would be amazed at how low the number is). There is an email address on the web site to get in touch with us.

Because DT does not flame like some and only pointed out problems in the treads that brought up the topic. The Email that was sent was just a custmer talking about his problems and the banning took place right after. (This is how i see it)

Edit: Why wont they inform DT as to why this happened?

As mentioned earlier, this suspension is not the cause of the email.

I dont think they can my self, due to there not being one

I know it's not as much fun as a good conspiracy theory - but the reasons are there and there is an ongoing discussion to resolve these issues.

I think perhaps some peoples search of bugs got a little too tireless, which made the powers above...well...tired.

Then they should disable the bug repost links

Ok These two seem to go together. Not at all, all bug reports are welcome and dealt with as they come in.

Others have posted far worce here and only had their posts deleted / edited so why now sudenly diside to ban someone?
Also that had nothing to do with what happened here. Was you banned for your actions in game? No we just solved to problem like adults and moved on. This is what i think the forum Mods should do rather then ban people is to try and work things out since the game is noted for its great comunity.

The suspension is not for a single post or email - indeed the original post was the subject of along and mostly positive conversation between myself and DT.

Lastly, this affair has shown the darker thoughts from the Arispotle natives towards the Wayfarers...

Sorry, not true. Get over it

If DoubleTap gives written permission (e-mail), can the CS staff display 'their version' of things that happened, if they wish to do so?

That would cause all sorts of issues with the Data Protection Act, which is a law in the UK that makes any kind of recorded information very secure and difficult to reveal. I also believe this issue is best dealt with between DT and us, rather than everyone.

There was no reason to delete whole thread. I was one of few ppl who posted one of first few comments on that deleted thread. If there was something wrong in one post in the thread (don't remember that anything was wrong in those first few posts), moderators here can do what they always do: delete one post or edit it. Not to delete whole thread!

The reasoning behind the thread being removed were discussed at the time with the player concerned - there were problems with it, these were pointed out and largely agreed on.

DT got ban after that letter. I don't see how text of that letter can be "one last step" to get banned.

No he didn't.

Soul wrote something like "there is more then this". I don't see that "more" anywhere on forums or any screenshots around. Playing for more then a year and watching forums from first open beta, FBT and release i never saw any post from DT that can be reason for ban.

That's correct you don't see the "more" anywhere because there is more than forums posts and pasted reponses to this - as is being discussed.

Remember that everything is started from simple bug report. If bug report can go so far that player is banned, there is something wrong in whole player-support-nevrax communication.

Seems to be a common misunderstanding, but it's not an accurate representation of the situation.

If DT did something really wrong, he'd be banned also from the game. Placing ban on forums and klients is just way to say "shut up!".

There are a range of options when it comes to dealing with situations like this and there was no reason to suspend anyone from the game, hence no one got suspended from the game.

Now, the staff may not be able to comment specifically on DT's case, but I think some clarification here would be fair. What constitutes harmful or abusive language? Does an angry, whining tone translate into harmful or hateful behavior? Is the position of the community managers here that unpleasant or abrasive personalities should be removed from the milieu? Is the code of conduct here, as I thought, to prevent directly harmful abuse? Or is it to enforce politeness? Is disrespecting someone the same as "defamation?"

As a rule most threads are allowed to run, even if they push the line a little. You are free to check back through the history of these forums and you will see plenty of what would be regarded as controversial threads allowed to run by the Community Managers. We understand that players get angry and whingy sometimes - who doesn't? Everyone has a pretty good idea of the line when it comes to profanity and abusive language use.

Of course, now I am being characterized as either drunk ("your going to hit the poor woman sitting to the left of the dart board, drinking a double wisky"), childish, overreacting, or lying.

I believe he was refering to the woman next to the dartboard being the drunk, not you. And no one is saying anyone is lying - implied or otherwise.

but is it stated he is banned permanently

That isn't the case

Right, I need a coffee after that.

I hope that has addressed some of your issues regarding this. I'm sure some won't like what has been said, but this is an ongoing situation so I would advise that it's probably worth just waiting to see how it progresses.

Regards

Soulsnatcher