Petition to unban Doubletap from forum and klients

[dazman76]

The repeated scathing talk of 'fanbois' etc does not elicit any sympathy, nor does harping on about this 'bug' which makes perfect sense to me. Poison damaging over time? Yep, makes sense. Kirosta do the same thing. So why harass and harrangue people once they've told you something isn't a bug?

And hasn't it been discussed, that this 'posion effect' ends if the mob is fought and killed instead of running? If it really was poison, the life or death of it's inflictor would be completely irrelevant. If the effect does end on mob death, then the explanation doesn't wash. Either that or the current implementation of the 'effect' is bugged. So why do you accept this explanation?

[kibsword]

Think this is relavant to this thread, said by souls in the other:

The original post issues were discussed with DT at length - this is a somewhat bigger picture here that involves more than a post or email

[sasaj]

Signed.

Some points:

1. There was no reason to delete whole thread. I was one of few ppl who posted one of first few comments on that deleted thread. If there was something wrong in one post in the thread (don't remember that anything was wrong in those first few posts), moderators here can do what they always do: delete one post or edit it. Not to delete whole thread!
2. You can't say to an player to stop talking about the bug (that bug is not exploit, so he/she can talk about it. This bug is reported and it will never be fixed. As long higher lvl mobs are bugged, you need more time to get max. level. - "There are too many high lvl players, let's nerf named, don't fix higher lvl mobs bigs, speed up mob attack, slow mobs repawn time, increase HP, so ppl will stay longer in this contentless game". But that is another story).
3. DT got ban after that letter. I don't see how text of that letter can be "one last step" to get banned.
4. Soul wrote something like "there is more then this". I don't see that "more" anywhere on forums or any screenshots around. Playing for more then a year and watching forums from first open beta, FBT and release i never saw any post from DT that can be reason for ban.
5. Remember that everything is started from simple bug report. If bug report can go so far that player is banned, there is something wrong in whole player-support-nevrax communication.
6. You can't ban someone in Klients. Unless you consider klients as chat and not as support tool. Ppl pay for playing this game and for that support. And AFIK, klients are support tool.
7. If DT did something really wrong, he'd be banned also from the game. Placing ban on forums and klients is just way to say "shut up!".
8. Many ppl in the past made bad post on the forums and never got ban. DT did a lot for this community and don't think he deserve to be victim in all this.

I don't know the other side of story in all this (and don't know DT or Zerlin), but deleting whole thread about bug, saying to player to stop talking about it and banning someone from using support tool is wrong.

[norvic]

Read DT's side of it and, I'm afraid, it still comes across as petulant whining.

Seems to me that the CSRs are being pretty professional in leaving the matter private while DT is presenting his 'side' of the argument rather exclusively and likely without admitting (or if I'm charitable _realising_) what he's done that's wrong.

The repeated scathing talk of 'fanbois' etc does not elicit any sympathy, nor does harping on about this 'bug' which makes perfect sense to me. Poison damaging over time? Yep, makes sense. Kirosta do the same thing. So why harass and harrangue people once they've told you something isn't a bug?

The talk about 'freedom of speech' is somewhat ridiculous. This is a private, not a governmental enterprise, and an international one at that. Not only does the constitution of the US not apply but, as a private company, Nevrax/Jolt get to make the rules about what goes on within their 'domain' (within limits) the same way a corporate entity can make you wear a suit to work or have you sign NDAs about contracts or whatever.

I should like to hear the whole story, of course, but the DT melinoe side seems incomplete and biased in the extreme, while also giving away hints of what likely lead to the ban.

What the fat Fyros says makes perfect sense to me, have also visited the Melinoe site and read DT side.

Have only met DT a couple of times IG and he seemed fine to me but also I have never experienced any probs with the support team and the poisoning issue seems logical.

Must abstain from this poll and regret this issue ever started, also abit cross with myself with posting a reply at all really but as some of the issue is supposedly about free speech i felt i should express an opinion.

[myseren]

Lastly, this affair has shown the darker thoughts from the Arispotle natives towards the Wayfarers. We have been described as “shouting”; “loud”, “rude”, “small children”, “spoiled brats”, and that we do not remember how to use “proper communication”. The implication is made that we are “demanding, egocentric and rude.” I have to wonder how much longer the Wayfarers will wait before finally conceding what the European base has been trying to say for so long...that this is their game, and we are most certainly not welcome.

pathetic, we are all on same server now, and i for one dont see any of this

[saeri]

We are being asked to believe that a GM or CSR would not abuse power; that, somehow, they are all above the frailties that are common to every human.
Most of us know that DT can, at times, be abrasive.
Most of us also know that the CSRs are usually helpful and friendly.
But that does not mean that those conditions are always true, all the time.
Is it outside the realm of plausibility that this action was taken, simply, as a show of power toward a player the CS team found both influential and irritating? I say it is not. In fact, I do not believe it is even outside the realm of plausibility. Why? Because the CS team is not comprised of endlessly patcient angels, and the least professional among them would certainly be prone to this type of response.

DT has posted the entire history, as far as he sees it, on the Melinoe website. It seems a pretty complete and balanced look at the drama. I don't think I can really express my disappointment at the CSR in question. I hope his reprimand is swift and permanent.

And what do we get from Nevarax and Jolt? Lawrence tries to convince us that the team would never ban someone without good reason. That we should believe them to be infallible and not given to act on spite or anger.

Soulsnatcher says that we are only being given a one-sided, biased view and that we should stop acting like children, and that "Once toys stop being thrown out of prams," then the 'adults' will take care of it.

This could be brought to an end if we were given frank information from the CS team about what they think 'really' happened. Of course, that will never occur. The all important 'privacy'. DoubleTap makes his case on the Melinoe forums, Jolt conveniently defends by saying his story is one-sided...and nothing more.

So, not only do we not get to know all the facts, such as they are, so that we can make an informed judgment; Doubletap is also prohibited from contributing further to the game through the forums. As a bonus, we all get to wonder if the next bug post or complaint that we make will get similarly squelched, accompanied with the similar lack of transparency.

But, and I think worst of all, the two basic problems that started this still stand. The jugula bug (and it must be a bug, there is no way that behavior is intended, despite what has been said) has not, as far as any of us know, been given serious consideration. And, the painfully obviously clicky nature of the CSRs/fanbois has not been at all addressed. Certain players, beloved of the CSRs, seem to be able to post whatever they like, the rest of us don't get nearly as much latitude.

Lastly, this affair has shown the darker thoughts from the Arispotle natives towards the Wayfarers. We have been described as “shouting”; “loud”, “rude”, “small children”, “spoiled brats”, and that we do not remember how to use “proper communication”. The implication is made that we are “demanding, egocentric and rude.” I have to wonder how much longer the Wayfarers will wait before finally conceding what the European base has been trying to say for so long...that this is their game, and we are most certainly not welcome.

When the general frustration and boredom with the endless, nearly unbroken, level grind gets to be more than the enjoyment I get out of being with my friends and guildmates, I will quit. Episodes like this, and the thinly veiled contempt of much of the player base towards the old Windemeer players add much to the frustration side of the formula.

WTF was that about? jesus.

I have never seen any bias hatred towards our US counterparts at all, I have no idea why you feel thats true.

Your whole post is based on your own opinion and what you perceive is happeneing, which unfortunatly for you, is so far off the mark, your going to hit the poor woman sitting to the left of the dart board, drinking a double wisky.

DT got banned because he broke certain rules, there as, nothing more so stop stirring with unfounded, childish remarks.

[riveit]

As for freedom of speech, isn't the ideal based on allowing everyone the right to say what they like as long as it doesn't impinge on others in a certain manner? Hence racism, inciting to riot, slander, etc are all still illegal?

Actually racist speech is constitutionally protected free speech in the US. Actions based on racism such as discrimination in jobs or housing can be illegal. Slander is not illegal in the US but you can be sued by the person(s) defamed.

[memiki]

Not signed.

dont' get me wrong on this, cause I have always liked DT and considered him a friend. He has saved me on many occasions. I have even stuck up for him in a former guild.

But this is now more of a personal issue. It is more like a vendetta against Zerlin.

Ok, let me put as I understand it. DT puts a ticket in about a bug cause he was upset it got him killed. understand. I get upset at least 3-4 times a day when I get killed. and that is on a slow day.

ok, his bug ticket is answered. and he gets told as everyone seems to love repeating over and over. "it is working as intended".

Ok, now I have grandchildren who when things don't go their way will stomp their feet and say I want it this way. This is what it is beginning to look like

DT doesn't like the intended way. If it is the Dev's decision then what can you do.

I was in Kilent the day that Zerlin told DT to desist. I felt he was very polite. Dt would not stop. Zerlin is not a Dev. what did DT want him to do change the problem. He was trying to tell DT but DT was not going to listen.

The few times I have had contact with the CSR's from the EE server, I have been treated with respect and politeness. I have seen them in game, which is really nice, they are talking to people. Which I never saw in the Themis group.

Do not drag in this merge thing. That is over and done with, other than my opinion it was the best thing in the world. I have made many friends and it is awesome. There is absoultely no reason to drag this in. No one has ever been disrespectful to me. If you have had a problem with anyone, have you thought maybe about your attitude toward them.

Also no use dragging in comparison between Themis and the Jolt team. The ones who are complaining in my opinon are the ones who were top dogs in that Kilent. I was ignored many times. naturally some will always be talked to more than others it is natural. some are on more than others so those will be recognized quicker.

Then to put a petition out when no one knows what went down except DT and Zerlin is wrong. You are asking people to blindly sign something only because they like someone and not because of the reasons it was done. This is their problem and no one else should get involved. If DT was so upset how do you know he didn't overreact

I understand DT doesn't like the statement "it is as intended" but maybe I realize this is farfetched, but maybe there is a plan later on that this will show why it is done. How about waiting to see. In the meantime if you don't like it stay away from the jugulas that is easy.

Ok, Basic I am waiting.

[madnak]

I agree there isn't a UK/US divide per se. However, there does seem to be a major rift materializing between players who feel politeness should be enforced and players who have a rougher way of expressing things. These "two sides" are definitely associated with the Arispotle and the Windermeer players, respectively. Moreover, Doubletap has done a lot of good for the community on the Windermeer server and that is going to influence the North American players' opinions of the situation.

On his site, DT posted many things - including the email he sent and the original forum post that seems to have started the whole issue. I can't see any CoC violations in either. The only rule that was clearly broken is that DT linked to an offsite forum on Klients, not by any means an offense that merits a complete permanent ban.

We don't have all of the information, but it's a fact of life that sometimes we have to make judgments without knowing every detail. We do understand the basic conflict and we have many specific examples of the situations involved.

I think this situation is important and calls for some concern on our parts. Even without looking at "the big picture," there's a lot here that concerns me. DT's original post on the bug was removed. The bug was definitely not exploitable, and apparently was suggested to be "working as intended." So it seems like the content of the post wasn't the reason for its removal. The presentation was.

DT unfortunately cut a section of the post out that was probably very relevant. But based on the rest of the post, DT's character, and the positions of those who actually saw the post in its entirety, we can figure out what it said. We know enough, I think, to identify where DT went wrong: "You may not use any harmful, hateful, abusive, vulgar, defamatory, obscene, racial, ethnically offensive, nor sexually explicit language to any other players or Customer Service Representatives."

The CoC is really vague enough in general that a particular interpretation could indict almost anyone. Everyone who has been playing for more than a few days has somehow discomforted another player - even excessive politeness discomforts some players. I think the CSRs here interpreted DT's posting as "harmful," "hateful," "abusive," "vulgar," and/or "defamatory." My problem with this? Having seen much of what DT wrote, and knowing how he often presents himself, it seems to me that he got permanently banned from the community for...get ready for it...being rude.

Now, the staff may not be able to comment specifically on DT's case, but I think some clarification here would be fair. What constitutes harmful or abusive language? Does an angry, whining tone translate into harmful or hateful behavior? Is the position of the community managers here that unpleasant or abrasive personalities should be removed from the milieu? Is the code of conduct here, as I thought, to prevent directly harmful abuse? Or is it to enforce politeness? Is disrespecting someone the same as "defamation?"

These are all relevant to the community as a whole, and I think that we deserve an official position in light of recent events.

[mrshad]

WTF was that about? jesus.

I have never seen any bias hatred towards our US counterparts at all, I have no idea why you feel thats true.

Your whole post is based on your own opinion and what you perceive is happeneing, which unfortunatly for you, is so far off the mark, your going to hit the poor woman sitting to the left of the dart board, drinking a double wisky.

DT got banned because he broke certain rules, there as, nothing more so stop stirring with unfounded, childish remarks.

It would appear I struck a nerve.

Of course, now I am being characterized as either drunk ("your going to hit the poor woman sitting to the left of the dart board, drinking a double wisky"), childish, overreacting, or lying.

I did not make up the quotes I used. As proof of their content and context, I refere you to this pair of posts:
http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.p ... ostcount=7
http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.p ... stcount=19

I would also point out the amount of support those posts generated.
But, that isn't the topic here, I only bring it up in this post to demonstrate that my remarks were not "unfounded"
I stated the problem in my first post as part of the dynamic of the Fanboi/CSR clique...something I veiw as quite relevant to the topic.

Did DT post some things in anger that were not entirely appropriate? By his own admission, he did.

Have others done just as much without even a repremand? Well...I guess that depends on your point of view, and this sort of judgement is, by its very nature, subjective. But, I think the preponderance of evidence shows that certain players get much more latidute than others.

DoubleTap has made his case, documented with links and screen shots. The CS team implies that DT is a liar by stating his story is one-sided, misrepresented, or at the very least; he misunderstood. That response would be fine if any evidence at all were presented as justification, but it is not, nor will it be. Silence in this matter is just too convienent.