Improving Outposts

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frakel
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:16 am

Improving Outposts

Post by frakel »

1) Why improvement is needed

When owning an outpost your relationship with the rest of the homins of Atys is one sided: you posses the goods (crystals, flowers, special mats) that are in very high demand. Since the running of the drills require neither upkeep nor maintenance, other homins rarely posses anything to offer you in return for these goods. Thus trade is seldom an option, which leaves donations or participating in OP battles as the main way to aquire these. Still there seem to be a large proportion of players who are discouraged by the outlook of having to be drawn into outpost battle after outpost battle, when they would rather spend their game time doing other things. Bad luck for them, you might reply... My reply would be the suggestions posted in this article ;)

Measured in quantity of resources, these suggestions will make it less profitable to control a single outpost. Measured in the quality of gameplay, I think these suggestions would be an improvement for all players, regardless of playing style. Instead of OPs being the sole domain of high-level fighting guilds, lets make them into small economic centres for all (or most) players. In the running and maintenance of OPs, in the trade of OP materials, and in the OP battles themselves it is time to involve more players at all levels than simply the owners of an outpost and their immediate allies. It is time for the owners of OPs to step up and become landlords in a wider sense, to employ other homins in their service, and thus integrate their outpost into both the economy and the gameplay of all. The owners should still receive substantial benefits, they must be something worth fighting for, but by allowing a greater participating of all players in the OPs I think we can turn them into something great that would make Ryzom stand apart from other games.

As allways, constructive feedback will be greatly appreciated!



2) Different types appealing to different players

In short, the main idea is to separate the outposts into different types, all being conquered by PvP battles, but each requiring different style gameplay to benefit fully from. Thus different types should be more attractive to some players than others. This should leave plenty opportunity for fun and fierce OP battles around the very attractive outposts, while allowing less PvP enthusiastic players to hold on to an outpost without facing constant battle challenges.

Also, it has been bugging me that the drills excavate flowers. Crystals – yes, I can understand how these are mined. But flowers? Or vines (maga)? So my suggestion would be this: crystals are excavated by the drills, flowers are grown in fields and the unique materials are gained through trading with the tribes of Atys. The current active outposts will remain as drills. The other two types of outposts would have to be build from the ground, on the current ruined outpost sites. When this has been accomplished, the game would have three times as many outposts, but each one producing only one type of resource.


Gameplay determining resource amount and quality distribution

As it is now outposts produce a fixed amount of resources with a fixed distribution of qualities (percentages of resources degraded to each level). I would like these two parameters, amount and quality distribution, to depend on the actions of players. Current quality caps should still apply off course, but enabling players to improve the distribution of qualities (fewer degrades) through various gameplay actions would open new opportunities. Conversely, neglecting to perform these actions should cause the distribution to worsen (more degrades). The type of actions required by players to keep amount and quality distribution up should vary by outpost type.


Farms: Securing the harvest

Farms is where fields are prepared, flowers are planted, grown and finally harvested. A farming taskmaster NPC would offer missions to perform the actual work in the fields. A good quality distribution should be achieved by players cleansing the fields – performing foraging missions for parasites, dead leaves, etc. Amount could be increased through fertilising – donating amounts of suitable raw materials. These could include sap, mushrooms etc. Finally, once each Atys cycle (summer season) it would be time for harvest. This would be a crucial time where players would litterally have to harvest the fruits of their labour – performing foraging missions for the flowers themselves.


Trade posts: Trading greslin for glasspearls with the natives

Would it be farfetched to assume that some of the tribes of Atys has their own secret sources of unique materials? They live out in the wilderness after all, who knows what they have stumbled upon. Some may even have learned to grow maga... Anyways, that is what I am assuming, and for hominkind to gain access to these materials they must do what civilization has done at all times: trade their own processed items with the raw materials of “the natives”. Once a trade post has been erected a NPC tribal trader would appear offering various crafting missions, offering quantities of unique material as a reward. There should be a maximum number of missions available each season. The amount of materials gained would thus depend on your ability to supply crafted items.

Quality distribution should depend on the owning guilds fame with the relevant tribe. If they like you better they offer you more of the better materials. That being said, the guilds fame with the tribe should be slowly decreasing while they own the OP, they are occupying some of the tribal lands after all. To keep their fame, and thus the quality of traded materials up, the owning guild would have to continuously perform various missions for the tribe, not only crafting missions, but hunting, scouting and delivery missions as well. In addition some special missions may spawn from time to time: “Sure homin, we would like to continue trading with you, but that nasty Kirosta is blocking the access to our sources... We count on you to solve that...”.


Drills: The bounty of the faithfull

The big trepans and tree-bores were given by the Karavan and Kami to reward their faithfull and help gather resources / restore the ecological balance respectively. For many, many cycles these drills has been continuously excavating. Who would raise an eyebrow if they should from time to time need a new drill or power source to continue working at peak efficiency? Luckily the Karavan and Kami will be happy to supply these – for a favour off course... I imagine a newly constructed drill should supply a daily amount of crystals somewhat higher than as it currently is. Also the quality distribution should be better. However, both of these parameters should slowly decrease over time, as the drill (quality) and power plant (amount) are gradually worn out. Replacing either would bring the relevant parameter up to full efficiency yet again.

To get a replacement part for a tree-bore you would apply at the Kamis naturally, conversely you would go to the Karavan to get a new part for your big trepan. Getting these should require a minimum fame (not too high though) and performing some mission which will increase your guilds fame with that faction, while decreasing it with the other faction. Thus even neutrals who own a drill will slowly find themselves becoming increasingly factioned if they want to have their drill running at peak efficiency.


The benefits of interdependencies

It should be obvious that drills are going to be the most contested outposts, they are attractive to factioned players (and it is my impression that the majority of the active PvP´ers are factioned), they produce crystals (the most attractive resource), and they require the least upkeep of the three types (only an occasional mission for the K´s). Conversely tradeposts will be less attractive to factioned players, since their fame cap would keep them from getting the best quality distribution of resources. Farms would appeal equally to factioned and non-factioned players, but would require some upkeep, which might make them less attractive to some.

By keeping all of the outposts challengable through regular PvP outpost battles, I think a reasonable balance of power could be achieved. A strong, factioned guild would now have an incentive to allow a non-factioned guild to own an outpost of tradepost type, since the non-factioned guild would make the outpost more productive. The strong guild could then open favourable trade with the non-factioned guild, or flatly demand protection money to refrain from attacking them. Same would be true for farms. A guild of farmers should be able to hold onto their plot of land through trade relations with potential challengers.


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HERE YOU WILL SOON BE ABLE TO READ ABOUT...



3) Construction: Founding, improving and maintaining your OP
Founding new outposts
Changing drill type
Fortifications
Barracks
Siege Workshops
Upkeep and maintenance

4) Involving other players: OP owners as employers
Getting a slice of it...
Beneficial economic consequences

5) Dynamic graphics: Making outposts live
Encouraging players to be observant

6) OP battles: More bang for your buck!
Better battles vs. more battles
Defensive structures
Siege engineers: Getting the crafters involved
Scouts and counter squads: A new role for the low-levels
Diversified tactics
Organization and communication
The element of chance: When storms blow OPs fall...

7) Consistent storyline: How to implement this
Scarcity leading to creativity
The logic of an armsrace


_____________________________________

Did I mention this is a work in progress? Well it is, the final goal being a nice consistent package of suggestions regarding outposts. So dont hold back on your opinions or suggestions, lets make this into something good :)
Last edited by frakel on Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jennaelf
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Re: Improving Outposts

Post by jennaelf »

I'm at work, with minimal time to comb through this (plus, I'm terrible when it comes to the mechanic aspect of games), but something I'd like to comment on:

Trading for OP Crystals/Flowers/Materials. Most of the Outposts trade between each other for the different quality crystals. Many guilds (at least the Order of the Dragonblades, and House Etchmarc) give away flowers, crystals, and sometimes the outpost materials.

If I had a stack of 150 crystals and you wanted to trade materials? Heck yes. You DO have something I want, just as much as I might have something you want. Remember: A crafter LOVES stacks of materials. As an example, Jeziellia is nearing 160 2h axe crafting. The example stack of q150 crystals would be worthless in that regard (I tend to use crystals predominantly for crafting and digging), but a stack of q170 materials... now we're talking.

So to say that there's seldom an option for trading and largely begging or battles... Is very much unfair and inaccurate. There is also a Community Outpost run by Braveganzar and some other VERY dedicated homins that hand out the fruits of their OP to guilds who sign up for the rotation. No begging, no trading. House Etchmarc donates a chunk of our drill's output to them as well.

"As it is now outposts produce a fixed amount of resources with a fixed distribution of qualities"

There are options for different drills you can have built on your construction site. They vary in how much of the three different things they'll harvest and the rates at which they are gathered. (Well I thought I had a SS of the different kinds of Drill options, but I can't find it in my email archives.)

I do kind of like the farm idea. I'm sure it needs more mechanical work, but hey. Like I said. Mechanics - no. Ideas - yes.


"Drills: The bounty of the faithfull"

THE problem with this? You more or less nudge OP ownership further into "Faction" territory. Right now there ARE neutral guilds holding OPs (maybe not many), but believe me when I say that as a Neutral guild, we do not need more reasons to have Kami or Karavan "allegiances". For those that ignore the RP aspects, that's fine. But for those of us that don't - it's hard to explain to a (rp) Kamist ally just why we are polishing that Karavan Guardian's boots...


I haven't read much on what the proposed "Spires" were, but they may cover some of the ideas you've presented here for Outposts. As a player, I don't see much trouble with the way the Outposts are handled right now. They encourage a LOT of networking and ally building. The PvP is actually refreshing (this is coming from a player who was scared to death of PvP and had anxiety issues because of the general @$$hats who were often pvp'ers). From an IC point of view, the politicking is VERY interesting. (Particularly challenging as a Neutral - trust me. It makes for a lot of political and personal intrigues. Especially if you have loyal Karavaneer and loyal Kamist friends.)

The post, however, is very well thoughtout and maybe someone with some more (and better) insight can offer a more constructive response!
Jeziellia Mara'tyr
Officer, House Etchmarc, Arispotle

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kyesmith
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Re: Improving Outposts

Post by kyesmith »

Hows about this for an idea, remove them?
From my gameplay perspective they have brought nothing good, they increase the speed of lvling for those who own them, increasing the time to get to lvl 250, get bored and quit, the whole idea of halfing the lvling time is stupid on the part of the devs....
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philu
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Re: Improving Outposts

Post by philu »

kyesmith wrote:Hows about this for an idea, remove them?
From my gameplay perspective they have brought nothing good, they increase the speed of lvling for those who own them, increasing the time to get to lvl 250, get bored and quit, the whole idea of halfing the lvling time is stupid on the part of the devs....
/sign

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xzizoux
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Re: Improving Outposts

Post by xzizoux »

kyesmith wrote:Hows about this for an idea, remove them?
From my gameplay perspective they have brought nothing good, they increase the speed of lvling for those who own them, increasing the time to get to lvl 250, get bored and quit, the whole idea of halfing the lvling time is stupid on the part of the devs....

totally agree with Yaffle
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rushin
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Re: Improving Outposts

Post by rushin »

kyesmith wrote:Hows about this for an idea, remove them?
From my gameplay perspective they have brought nothing good, they increase the speed of lvling for those who own them, increasing the time to get to lvl 250, get bored and quit, the whole idea of halfing the lvling time is stupid on the part of the devs....

oh yes, cats are certainly the most ill thought out thing ever introduced to this game. Was it Jessica's idea i wonder? Rewards for PvP should be symbolic, not game altering (read destroying in this case)
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dcrispo
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Re: Improving Outposts

Post by dcrispo »

While I do not use them all that much myself, I do not believe removing them fom the game as any kind of option at all. They help further skills that some guilds may need if they are still in their formative stage of development.

As mentioned prior there is now a "Community OP" open to all, like many guilds mine also happily gives to this OP as much as we can.
Players that have the mindset to lvl up at all costs as quickly as they can and then once achieved leave the game are usually not true gamers but, just folks that enjoy the competition with themselves and others to become better. While not a bad thing at all, they do miss out on the communal aspects of the game. With all the skills we do have available to us the attempt to max out each of them is a overkill in my opinion. Becoming good in certain skills that aid or enchance your goals within the game seems alot more reasonable to achieve.
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frakel
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Re: Improving Outposts

Post by frakel »

Just a quick comment for now. But this is very important to me:
jennaelf wrote:So to say that there's seldom an option for trading and largely begging or battles... Is very much unfair and inaccurate. There is also a Community Outpost run by Braveganzar and some other VERY dedicated homins that hand out the fruits of their OP to guilds who sign up for the rotation. No begging, no trading. House Etchmarc donates a chunk of our drill's output to them as well.
Maybe my choice of words were poor when I called it begging. OK I admit it. It was a poor choice of words. I do not wish to be neither unfair nor inaccurate ;) And neither am I ignorant of the great initiative of the community outpost as well as the generous donations of other guilds or players. I have been a reciever of these donations as well.

My point however is that they are donations. The community outpost is an anomali in the game, something that seems to have evolved against all odds. That only make the effort that much more commendable, it is a tribute to the player community as well. But why is it, that it has to evolve against all odds? Wouldnt it be better if the game mechanics and economy also provided a way to earn outpost resources, or provided better incentives for less PvP inclined guilds to gain a foothold? That was the point I was trying to make there.


I have taken your other points into consideration - thanks for the feedback. Please shoot again if there is anything else that might need a comment :)
Last edited by frakel on Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jamela
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Re: Improving Outposts

Post by jamela »

I think Outposts were intended to be much more as you suggest they should be, than they are, Mercellus. Outposts were rushed out and not delivered as initially suggested (:rolleyes :) . As they stand, I would echo the sentiments above, and say that Outposts as released have been bad for Ryzom, and the catalysts in particular are killing the game.

You've called some Farms and some Trading Posts, I presume that you picked these up from the names of the outposts. There was a lot of speculation, long ago, about the various different forms outposts would take, depending on their name. Diplomatic Outposts? Research Centres? If changes were to be made to Outposts, those already in place should not remain as they are, but fall in line with the role attributed to them by their names. Magic Pole, anyone? :D
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ajsuk
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Re: Improving Outposts

Post by ajsuk »

I'm liking some of these ideas, concering the produce though, I think this is a total minefield and wouldn't want the job of sorting them out in a month of sundays.

There may well be a better solution than cats etc and I look forward to the ideas to come but before we even get too far down that road, look at it like this:

The replacement/adjustment would have to still be worth bothering with, otherwise whats the point in having them. Nobodys going to spend hours of time/money/equiment hp fighting for them without getting (or the chance of getting) something out of it in the end.

So basicly by owning an OP you'll get something you don't normaly, I'm sorry but be it cats or, special mats, HP boost party hats or magic yubo turds, if it doesn't aid you in some way (leveling, Weapon upgrades, stat upgrades, whatever), its not desirable. The point I'm trying to get accross is, _whatever_ it is, if something aids you in _any_ way (at least that I can think of) it'll always help you win more OPs (even in the long run) because it makes something in the Atys circle of life (Fight/Harvest/Craft) easier or more efficient, etc and it'll always be something to moan about.

Personally I don't see why you shouldn't get something for putting the effort in to taking an OP, as the old saying goes: You don't get something for nothing...

This isn't me riding the cat bandwagon as I said, I look forward to other ideas and might consider them if they really sound like they could work, but just pointing out, whatever happens we'll have the same problems unless things are very well thought out and balanced. We might just as well be able to adjust and improve on what we already have rather than an entire overhaul. Also, no matter how good the balance is, they'll always be people moaning about it, because thats all they know how to do. :p
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