Okay, silly question because it's not clear and I'd like to know before investing a huge amount of time into developing the skills needed...
When using stanzas like 'Bleeding' or 'Ignore armor', can you use them with ranged weapons as long as it's the appropriate ammo type, or is it hth only? If it is hth only, then why are those skills part of the ranged weapons progression? Likewise, the aimed skills all say that they are for melee only. And they are in the ranged progrssion too.
Can anyone confirm this one way or the other? Thanks.
Ranged weapon and skills
Re: Ranged weapon and skills
As far as I know, you can't use "piercing armor" with piercing bullets. Should be the same with bleeding, and (of course) increased damage.
The only hope (and obvious purpose) of range weapons should be aiming. Currently you do the same amount of damage, anywhere you're aiming at. That's sad...
As some people says in other thread, range weapons have some major issues, balancing trouble, like they were added quickly to increase skill-tree possibilities.
I may have wrong, but this is the way I feel it :
between q10 and q25 bullets, damages/ammo increase too slowly (in fact, this is almost the same as a hth weap same quality. Good for balancing, but there is no specials stanzas for ranged weps as you noticed) so it becomes suicidal to hunt the same mob with hth lvl40 and range lvl40...
I craft pistol, rifle and autolauncher. Every time the "q10" ammos are great, and... the only one worthy. I tried to do a "hunting session" with bullets only : it cost you about 50K (or more) to do about 240 q10 bullets, and you barely can get 1 level (at lvl35-40 range) and you win (by selling drop mats) about half or less (25K rewards) it cost to made ammos - depends of target -
autolaunchers are verrrry nice... against suckling or weanling herds (q10 does 110 damage, q25 140 dam... only) ~
area effect seems buggy (sometimes 1 only are killed, sometimes 4 who weren't near each other, nearest still alive) And if you don't kill them all at first shoot, you'll never be able to do another efficient "area damage". also, ammo bulk is very high compared to efficiency of those.
Well, the way to solve it is to give specials stanzas for this skill (like instant malus when aiming, double damage, or even more : damages depend of ammos AND weapon - range craft special stanza ? -).
Being able to inflict maximum damage with every shoot is great, at least
...
...
or maybe the developers/ game masters have hidden the best use of this skill, only available at higher level, making this skill the most dreadful and hard to get. - or you'll need a guild npc trainer -
The (my) dream is to be able to repel an assault/swarm of kipee with a long-shoot artillery stunning lots of them and killing those poor thing at "ground zero".
The only hope (and obvious purpose) of range weapons should be aiming. Currently you do the same amount of damage, anywhere you're aiming at. That's sad...
As some people says in other thread, range weapons have some major issues, balancing trouble, like they were added quickly to increase skill-tree possibilities.
I may have wrong, but this is the way I feel it :
between q10 and q25 bullets, damages/ammo increase too slowly (in fact, this is almost the same as a hth weap same quality. Good for balancing, but there is no specials stanzas for ranged weps as you noticed) so it becomes suicidal to hunt the same mob with hth lvl40 and range lvl40...
I craft pistol, rifle and autolauncher. Every time the "q10" ammos are great, and... the only one worthy. I tried to do a "hunting session" with bullets only : it cost you about 50K (or more) to do about 240 q10 bullets, and you barely can get 1 level (at lvl35-40 range) and you win (by selling drop mats) about half or less (25K rewards) it cost to made ammos - depends of target -
autolaunchers are verrrry nice... against suckling or weanling herds (q10 does 110 damage, q25 140 dam... only) ~
area effect seems buggy (sometimes 1 only are killed, sometimes 4 who weren't near each other, nearest still alive) And if you don't kill them all at first shoot, you'll never be able to do another efficient "area damage". also, ammo bulk is very high compared to efficiency of those.Well, the way to solve it is to give specials stanzas for this skill (like instant malus when aiming, double damage, or even more : damages depend of ammos AND weapon - range craft special stanza ? -).
Being able to inflict maximum damage with every shoot is great, at least
...
...
or maybe the developers/ game masters have hidden the best use of this skill, only available at higher level, making this skill the most dreadful and hard to get. - or you'll need a guild npc trainer -
The (my) dream is to be able to repel an assault/swarm of kipee with a long-shoot artillery
stunning lots of them and killing those poor thing at "ground zero".Re: Ranged weapon and skills
After lurking a bit, everyone knows about the ranged weap problem, and nothing will be fixed, either patch one nor patch two.
Say ! some moderators here can sticky a thread about this trouble ? We can initiate a debate/wishlist about that .
- unbalanced cost / effectiveness (exponentially expensive, ...)
- craft skills and skillspoint (med-q, hi-end, ...)
- dedicated stanzas (...!)
- damages issues (constant growth...)
- wrong "buggy" behaviour (2-hand able to shoot when running...)
- GFXs (area damage, smoke, flare,...)
- SFXs (plain "bang!" don't do it, ...)
Making q50 ammos is so tough that you don't want to use them
Say ! some moderators here can sticky a thread about this trouble ? We can initiate a debate/wishlist about that .
- unbalanced cost / effectiveness (exponentially expensive, ...)
- craft skills and skillspoint (med-q, hi-end, ...)
- dedicated stanzas (...!)
- damages issues (constant growth...)
- wrong "buggy" behaviour (2-hand able to shoot when running...)
- GFXs (area damage, smoke, flare,...)
- SFXs (plain "bang!" don't do it, ...)
Making q50 ammos is so tough that you don't want to use them
Re: Ranged weapon and skills
add
- high amount of materials used to craft relatively low amount of ammo
- balance ranged fight vs. ranged magic
to the list of issues.
- high amount of materials used to craft relatively low amount of ammo
- balance ranged fight vs. ranged magic
to the list of issues.
-------
Svayvti
Former Pilgrim of Atys
Follower of the Kami
Svayvti
Former Pilgrim of Atys
Follower of the Kami
Re: Ranged weapon and skills
Ranged weapons are FUBAR'd to hell. To date, nothing I have seen indicates that the developers are aware of (although this seems impossible), care about or intend to do anything regarding the screwed up nature of ranged weapons, ranged weapons skills and ranged weapons crafting.
Almost to every single person I have talked to who tried out ranged weapons, they have admitted that ranged weapons are not viable beyond a very short stint killing newbie mobs, unbelievably expensive and just do not compete well against melee or magic combat. Most people I have talked to tell me to go melee combat and forget about ranged weapons until it is fixed.
I have a tryker who crafts q20 pistols and ammo...he has level 23 in melee/ranged combat. I am nearly always cashed out when compared to my friends who are melee or mage combat skilled. Furthermore, they quickly started to out damage me and have much more stanza choices.
Would LOVE to hear the developers weigh in on this subject!
Almost to every single person I have talked to who tried out ranged weapons, they have admitted that ranged weapons are not viable beyond a very short stint killing newbie mobs, unbelievably expensive and just do not compete well against melee or magic combat. Most people I have talked to tell me to go melee combat and forget about ranged weapons until it is fixed.
I have a tryker who crafts q20 pistols and ammo...he has level 23 in melee/ranged combat. I am nearly always cashed out when compared to my friends who are melee or mage combat skilled. Furthermore, they quickly started to out damage me and have much more stanza choices.
Would LOVE to hear the developers weigh in on this subject!
Re: Ranged weapon and skills
thx for added issues
I am lvl50+ range weap craft, and this is very hard, and expensive, and almost useless to get further :
- almost impossible to make q50 and above ammos
- "xp-craft" with q10 ammos is very slow (must craft 50 times per level), it may be not a problem if there is a rang. weap market place but there isn't.
- No ranged weapons marketplace : people tells me that range weapons warrior do craft for their own bullets... In fact, r.weps are kinda "collector" objects.
- Marketplace does exist this way : some players wants a ranged weps for "pulling" mobs, then they switch back to melee fight... (except magician/melee ones)
I am lvl40 range weap warrior, and this is useless to go further :
- aim and shoot efficiency is the same at lvl1 to lvl40.
- >1K xp/mobs are hard to kill. 3K xp/mobs one are almost lethal
- to be able to get this far, I need to be a melee fighter about twice the level of range one!! (for HP and armor used)
- okay, okay, I want go to to lvl51 at least, looking for, maybe, some sudden improvment ? not really. Just for the title
Need to add after those remarks : being so difficult to be a range weapon user made range fighter very uncommon. Sure if range weps were powerful and efficient, we will see lots of people running everywhere with them. And I like this "singularity".
So the (my) Question is : when in become efficient.
I see tribes who use r.weps doing 200+ damage per shot (against me, lol, oops dead!)
I see bandits having infinite ammo supply (lol again), and able to shoot at me further than 50m.
What level is needed to do that ?
A little chart show me that to deal 200+ damage per bullet, you need q100 pistol/rifle ammos (from at least fine mats), or q50 (at least fine mats) autolauncher ammos
Stanzas that sounds good :
- Double damage when aiming eyes (with pierce/slash/smash)
- Bleeding when aiming chest (pierce/slash)
- Stunning when aiming head (smash)
- Slowing down when aiming leg/arm (smash/pierce)
- Powerful critical hit (per ammo type) up to 4x damage (hi-lvl only)
- artillery (maximized area effect, very high cost of stamina/hp -recoil effect- and maybe consume a whole pack of ammo -cumulated damages-) (very hi-lvl only)
Craft that sounds good :
- ignore armor bullets
- twice more bullets with same amount of mats (hi-lvl)
- poisonous bullets
- stunning ammos for area effect (yay, lachrymo grenades!) (replacing smash ammo ?)
- frag ammos for area effect (replacing pierce ammo ?)
- high explosive "bleed" or "burning" ammos for area effect (replacing slash ammo ?)
err, we have to think about drawbacks also, like Kami or Karavan interferring, or shoot misses hurting teammates or wild animals.
I am lvl50+ range weap craft, and this is very hard, and expensive, and almost useless to get further :
- almost impossible to make q50 and above ammos
- "xp-craft" with q10 ammos is very slow (must craft 50 times per level), it may be not a problem if there is a rang. weap market place but there isn't.
- No ranged weapons marketplace : people tells me that range weapons warrior do craft for their own bullets... In fact, r.weps are kinda "collector" objects.
- Marketplace does exist this way : some players wants a ranged weps for "pulling" mobs, then they switch back to melee fight... (except magician/melee ones)
I am lvl40 range weap warrior, and this is useless to go further :
- aim and shoot efficiency is the same at lvl1 to lvl40.
- >1K xp/mobs are hard to kill. 3K xp/mobs one are almost lethal
- to be able to get this far, I need to be a melee fighter about twice the level of range one!! (for HP and armor used)
- okay, okay, I want go to to lvl51 at least, looking for, maybe, some sudden improvment ? not really. Just for the title
Need to add after those remarks : being so difficult to be a range weapon user made range fighter very uncommon. Sure if range weps were powerful and efficient, we will see lots of people running everywhere with them. And I like this "singularity".
So the (my) Question is : when in become efficient.
I see tribes who use r.weps doing 200+ damage per shot (against me, lol, oops dead!)
I see bandits having infinite ammo supply (lol again), and able to shoot at me further than 50m.
What level is needed to do that ?
A little chart show me that to deal 200+ damage per bullet, you need q100 pistol/rifle ammos (from at least fine mats), or q50 (at least fine mats) autolauncher ammos
Stanzas that sounds good :
- Double damage when aiming eyes (with pierce/slash/smash)
- Bleeding when aiming chest (pierce/slash)
- Stunning when aiming head (smash)
- Slowing down when aiming leg/arm (smash/pierce)
- Powerful critical hit (per ammo type) up to 4x damage (hi-lvl only)
- artillery (maximized area effect, very high cost of stamina/hp -recoil effect- and maybe consume a whole pack of ammo -cumulated damages-) (very hi-lvl only)
Craft that sounds good :
- ignore armor bullets
- twice more bullets with same amount of mats (hi-lvl)
- poisonous bullets
- stunning ammos for area effect (yay, lachrymo grenades!) (replacing smash ammo ?)
- frag ammos for area effect (replacing pierce ammo ?)
- high explosive "bleed" or "burning" ammos for area effect (replacing slash ammo ?)
err, we have to think about drawbacks also, like Kami or Karavan interferring, or shoot misses hurting teammates or wild animals.
Re: Ranged weapon and skills
This is something I posted back in beta during my time as a ranged crafter and rifle specialist:
-------------
Anyone who's progressed far in ranged combat has to agree with these. Played both ranged/ranged crafting and melee/magic/melee crafting and there's very little reason for anyone to struggle up with ranged combat; there's just so little reward for the work invested...
I'll break it down into 4 stages, with the first few being very easy and quick to implement, while the last may take a bit more coding.
Change 1:
Quadruple the ammo count per clip with the current material usage. Reduce weight by 75%
There's just no way to go out for an extended hunt with ranged weapons. Especially with Launchers/Autolaunchers, a pack animal is required for any trips out into the bush. This would also ease the prohibitive cost of using a ranged weapon as your primary means of dealing damage.
Change 2:
Enable bleed/stun/ignore armor bricks to be purchased and used for the appropriate ammo types (slash/smash/pierce)
Currently there is no incentive to spend skill points in any ranged combat skills at the sub-50 levels. Those stanzas for melee slash/smash/pierce weapons should also be usable with similar ammo.
Change 3:
Scrap the whole "Aim At" (Kitin head, kitin body, quadruped leg, humanoid...ect) system.
This is just a silly system imho. Replace it with called shot ability. ie: Called shot "Head", "Arms/Forelegs", "Body", "Legs" that work with the appropriate effect for any target. Make unique graphic for each one to easily recognize and choose.
Change 4:
Implement new skills: "Double Tap" and/or "Full Auto"(Burst Shot?), "Suppression Fire" and "Pistol Whip"/"Buttstroke" (depending on your weapon)
The first would scale up like 'increased damage' for melee weapon, with a corresponding increase in ammo usage and stamina cost. The second would be implemented similarly to the mage 'root' spell, but on a timer; the length would increase as the skill level is raised. Finally, the last abilities would allow close combat with a ranged weapon at point-blank when all the ammo is burned up. Or when the critter you're shooting at is down to its last few hp's and you'd rather end the fight with a smack instead of an expensive bullet.
None of these would be overbalancing or difficult to enable, and would GREATLY increase the appeal of this method of combat for those considering becomming gunmen...
Thoughts/comments/opinions?
----------------
Javance Battleborne of Stormhaven
Tryker Goods-Seeker and Bladesmith
Windermeer
-------------
Anyone who's progressed far in ranged combat has to agree with these. Played both ranged/ranged crafting and melee/magic/melee crafting and there's very little reason for anyone to struggle up with ranged combat; there's just so little reward for the work invested...
I'll break it down into 4 stages, with the first few being very easy and quick to implement, while the last may take a bit more coding.
Change 1:
Quadruple the ammo count per clip with the current material usage. Reduce weight by 75%
There's just no way to go out for an extended hunt with ranged weapons. Especially with Launchers/Autolaunchers, a pack animal is required for any trips out into the bush. This would also ease the prohibitive cost of using a ranged weapon as your primary means of dealing damage.
Change 2:
Enable bleed/stun/ignore armor bricks to be purchased and used for the appropriate ammo types (slash/smash/pierce)
Currently there is no incentive to spend skill points in any ranged combat skills at the sub-50 levels. Those stanzas for melee slash/smash/pierce weapons should also be usable with similar ammo.
Change 3:
Scrap the whole "Aim At" (Kitin head, kitin body, quadruped leg, humanoid...ect) system.
This is just a silly system imho. Replace it with called shot ability. ie: Called shot "Head", "Arms/Forelegs", "Body", "Legs" that work with the appropriate effect for any target. Make unique graphic for each one to easily recognize and choose.
Change 4:
Implement new skills: "Double Tap" and/or "Full Auto"(Burst Shot?), "Suppression Fire" and "Pistol Whip"/"Buttstroke" (depending on your weapon)
The first would scale up like 'increased damage' for melee weapon, with a corresponding increase in ammo usage and stamina cost. The second would be implemented similarly to the mage 'root' spell, but on a timer; the length would increase as the skill level is raised. Finally, the last abilities would allow close combat with a ranged weapon at point-blank when all the ammo is burned up. Or when the critter you're shooting at is down to its last few hp's and you'd rather end the fight with a smack instead of an expensive bullet.
None of these would be overbalancing or difficult to enable, and would GREATLY increase the appeal of this method of combat for those considering becomming gunmen...
Thoughts/comments/opinions?
----------------
Javance Battleborne of Stormhaven
Tryker Goods-Seeker and Bladesmith
Windermeer
Re: Ranged weapon and skills
Don't forget about Snapshot and Suppression Fire. And for credit Stanzas how about Increase Time (aim), Set/Brace (increase your accuracy but drop your defense in the bucket), or perhapds Jam/Misfire, recoil, Single Shot, Bolt Action, Semi-Auto, and Automatic.
Of course, Semi-auto amd automatic (maybe even Bolt action) would probably be upgrades giving you the ablility to use burst and full auto. And by the way, Devs, if you see this, please, PLEASE, for the love of St. Pete, don't have burst and Auto be a set amount of hits. It should vary based off the (hidden) accuracy of the roll. The thing is, they have the potential to be very damaging, but may not. Recoil is a bugger (and doing a Sgt. Rock is darn near impossible to hit any thing).
Also, would it be possible to make ammo not "dissappear." What I am trying to get at are self loads. If you create ammo, and fire off the wad, could we just reload the empty shells, reducing the need for new mats? Of couse, this is provided you have shells. Caseless ammo and autoguns might be a problem. Shoot, you could even make it a new type of plan or upgrade to learn, "Reloadable Shell."
As for damage types, I guess I'd just like to see, Semi-armor Piercing -standard assault rifle round- (piercing damage), Hollow point (slashing damage), XAP (explosive armor piercing for that real nasty hit), and well, don't know, tumbling maybe, but that is an after affect of the bullet deforming and spinning inside the person after penetration.
For the autoguns, you have the ever popular Explosive (your standard Area affect), HEAT (and AP round for those real big critters, or small ones if you plike water vapor), Fuel-Air bomb (essentially a thermite or phosphorous round), Gas (I know those freaking Cuttlers have it), Bio (the best way to piss the Kami's off - a DOT-), and that's about it.
Okay, that's it for now, need to check game status...
PS: Oh, and for all that is Holy, do not put a "Smashing Damage" round out there. I can't see that being effective on any thing in this planet. You want to shoot a Kitin with a bean-bag or rubber bullet. Yah, sure.
Oh, don't let me for get about maybe Eletric rounds. Basically a bullet with a capcitor. And then there is Plasma, you basic SF flare.
Of course, Semi-auto amd automatic (maybe even Bolt action) would probably be upgrades giving you the ablility to use burst and full auto. And by the way, Devs, if you see this, please, PLEASE, for the love of St. Pete, don't have burst and Auto be a set amount of hits. It should vary based off the (hidden) accuracy of the roll. The thing is, they have the potential to be very damaging, but may not. Recoil is a bugger (and doing a Sgt. Rock is darn near impossible to hit any thing).
Also, would it be possible to make ammo not "dissappear." What I am trying to get at are self loads. If you create ammo, and fire off the wad, could we just reload the empty shells, reducing the need for new mats? Of couse, this is provided you have shells. Caseless ammo and autoguns might be a problem. Shoot, you could even make it a new type of plan or upgrade to learn, "Reloadable Shell."
As for damage types, I guess I'd just like to see, Semi-armor Piercing -standard assault rifle round- (piercing damage), Hollow point (slashing damage), XAP (explosive armor piercing for that real nasty hit), and well, don't know, tumbling maybe, but that is an after affect of the bullet deforming and spinning inside the person after penetration.
For the autoguns, you have the ever popular Explosive (your standard Area affect), HEAT (and AP round for those real big critters, or small ones if you plike water vapor), Fuel-Air bomb (essentially a thermite or phosphorous round), Gas (I know those freaking Cuttlers have it), Bio (the best way to piss the Kami's off - a DOT-), and that's about it.
Okay, that's it for now, need to check game status...
PS: Oh, and for all that is Holy, do not put a "Smashing Damage" round out there. I can't see that being effective on any thing in this planet. You want to shoot a Kitin with a bean-bag or rubber bullet. Yah, sure.
Oh, don't let me for get about maybe Eletric rounds. Basically a bullet with a capcitor. And then there is Plasma, you basic SF flare.
Re: Ranged weapon and skills
Some great ideas, guys.
But we must take care of the roleplay background... let's forget about plasma gun or BFG10K (yay... hey, Karavan people have some, don't they ?)
For Matis crafter, they use natural/living stuff to make bullets, so they almost can't do electrical-enhanced. Plasma bullets ? mmh, magically powered ones stuff...
About automatic or suppression fire, that's quite outta roleplay / technological background. Or maybe at very hi level of craft and range fight (above 200), like my "artillery" idea.
(rifle craft then heavy two-barrel rifle then gatling )
Double damage using two ammo at once is really good idea. no matters what.
Others stanzas ideas are good. But we should keep in mind that the more easier it is, most of people will use it. Most of the great stuff must start around lvl100 craft / lvl150 fight.
Penality MUST be increased. we agreed.
Different kind of ammos are a must-have. range weapons are *not* like melee, with slash/pierce/smash. ammos must be specifical for the weapon used : pistol (standard stuff) rifle (damaging stuff) launcher (area effect stuff) autolauncher (multiple grenades ) and so on...
But we must take care of the roleplay background... let's forget about plasma gun or BFG10K (yay... hey, Karavan people have some, don't they ?)
For Matis crafter, they use natural/living stuff to make bullets, so they almost can't do electrical-enhanced. Plasma bullets ? mmh, magically powered ones stuff...
About automatic or suppression fire, that's quite outta roleplay / technological background. Or maybe at very hi level of craft and range fight (above 200), like my "artillery" idea.
(rifle craft then heavy two-barrel rifle then gatling
)Double damage using two ammo at once is really good idea. no matters what.
Others stanzas ideas are good. But we should keep in mind that the more easier it is, most of people will use it. Most of the great stuff must start around lvl100 craft / lvl150 fight.
Penality MUST be increased. we agreed.
Different kind of ammos are a must-have. range weapons are *not* like melee, with slash/pierce/smash. ammos must be specifical for the weapon used : pistol (standard stuff) rifle (damaging stuff) launcher (area effect stuff) autolauncher (multiple grenades ) and so on...
Re: Ranged weapon and skills
While all these are great ideas and great improvements to range weapons. You have to realize that from a storyline perspective, aren't range weapon skill more of a novelty? The civilization has regressed technologically, and have only recently been reinvigorated by the karavan. Maybe in the future the technology would improve but maybe at this point its like using muskets.
Some of those skills you mentioned are directly stolen from SWG and those were game breaking skills that made bounty hunters able to beat just about anything in the game. Do we want another game breaking skill that defeats the purpose of ever using melee or spells? I agree that range weapons should be improved, but not to the point where it would do more than any other weapon or spell. You are already removed from alot of risk by being in the back shooting. That is one advantage that melees don't have.
Some of those skills you mentioned are directly stolen from SWG and those were game breaking skills that made bounty hunters able to beat just about anything in the game. Do we want another game breaking skill that defeats the purpose of ever using melee or spells? I agree that range weapons should be improved, but not to the point where it would do more than any other weapon or spell. You are already removed from alot of risk by being in the back shooting. That is one advantage that melees don't have.