Ryzom

kurita wrote:[*]if 9 Guildies from Guild_A show up to defend, then 9 Friends can join in
[*]and 10 Guildies join from Guild_B as Attackers, then (9*2)-10=8 Friends can help them.

you forget that defenders have guards. altho they weak, you need lot of healing/fire power to beat them.

O.K., the mektoub's a pool of bloody goo slowly seaping into the desert sands now, you can stop flailing it with your clubs (j/k, couldn't resist the opening)

blaah wrote:you forget that defenders have guards. altho they weak, you need lot of healing/fire power to beat them.

well thats why i put it up with RFC(request for comment), as i knew i´ll forget something


but on how to remedy that Problem, hmm

two ideas come to mind:

ether just add the Number of Guards to the Number of Attackers... well thats a not so good idea
or something like (average#o´Guards/(6-(OPlvl/50)) that should offset both the # of Guards and the OP´s Level...
as i don´t know how large a Spawn of Guards is at minimum/maximum,
but i know that the lvl50 OP Guards are a lot easier then lvl250 ones
getting 1/5th to all of the the Guards # to the Numbers of Attackers should be fair

mehanson wrote:O.K., the mektoub's a pool of bloody goo slowly seaping into the desert sands now, you can stop flailing it with your clubs (j/k, couldn't resist the opening)

lol, Sam i´ll stop if you carry me to the bar in Pyr

The cause of the current climate as I see it can best be illuminated by a tale of a Christmas that went wrong:

Twas the night before Christmas, and all around the globe the children of Atys eagerly anticipated the arrival of the new toys from Santa. This Christmas, however, Santa filled some stocking to overflowing while others awoke on Christmas morning to find theirs were empty.

This isn't right said many, Santa is supposed to come to all on their Christmas mornings, and guilds such as Mystic Knights of Atys left to find a world where Christmas was also celebrated in the Australian time zone. Others, such as a poster whose goodbye post I was unable to locate, found division of the community into haves and have nots so saddening they left in pursuit of a happier and more just world in which to spend their leisure time.

Many of those who remained were no happier. Some who had put in the same time and effort fighting npcs as those who got an op got nothing. Others who had worked long and hard, and in a merit-based system would have been those who had earned access to the new crafting mats, got nothing. And many, given surveys of numbers of players who don't wish to pvp, felt permanently consigned to the have not basket. Santa had sown the seeds of resentment by giving only to some who had done little to earn massive gifts they received, while those who weren't online at the right time, had helped friends, or don't like to fight over toys got none.

New year in Atys was no happier than Christmas had been. Those with new toys wished to keep them, and formed alliances with other haves so they could. Even the pvp-ers whom ops were supposed to cater for were unhappy now, as few were the fun and sporting fights they had anticipated enjoying. Unhappiness grew in the have not community also, as while some had shared their new toys, others took advantage of the circumstances Santa had placed them in and charged exhorbitant prices for cats or used them as mat digging servants. Seeing that some were not content with receiving endless goodies for the "work" of a 2 hour fight, but sought yet further advantage at the expense of those who had none led to increased resentment, cynicism regarding homin nature, and fracturing of a sense of community. Squabbling, accusations, threats, discord and tension erupted throughout Atys. The atmosphere became so depressing that guilds such as Cresent Moon left the game they had thought they would play forever just to escape it.

The haves are as affected by the current climate as the have nots. Samsara sold their op to escape the stresses associated with op ownership, others have told me they want out too, and I am not in game today to escape them. There is a serious problem when players need to escape into their rls to de-stress from an entertainment product, and it is clear that op associated tensions adversely affect the entire community - haves as well as have nots, and pvp-ers as well as non pvp-ers.

While I agree problems such as false declares need to be addressed, to my mind no amount of improving op fights can address the tensions that are rife and erupting in many destructive ways. Will addressing op fight issues address the situation of those who don't pvp? No. Will it remove the incentive to form alliances and hang on to what one has? No. Will it alleviate the resentment those who don't have feel when they see the priveleged leveling every skill with ease while they grind away? No. Will it relieve the tensions owners are subject to when confronted with the unpleasant decision of who gets what and who is wanting to take what they have this week? No. The core problem which no amount of improving the mechanics of op fights can address is that ppl resent having to work twice as long and hard as others to earn the same reward. Have nots resent haves, haves resent have mores (lower Q op owners resent they don't receive the same rewards as higher Q owners, guilds with more members resent that guilds with fewer members get more per member) and even the uber haves such as Samsara with a Q250 op with a great mat are subject to so many stresses they prefer to opt out. Those that don't pvp are by and large excluded from ever becoming true haves (ie able to obtain an op of the Q they wish via earning it themselves) which is further source of resentment and also engenders feelings of hopelessness, while those who have don't like what they value being taken from them and see those who take not as out for a sporting day of pvp fun but as doing something which harms them.

False declares are a symptom of the core problem, not the core problem per se. The first round of them followed the taking of an op and was retalitation for having been taken from, which leads to counter retaliations and counter-counter retaliations and so it goes on (and on and on and on) to predictable result of a climate of mistrust and hostility. False declares are destructive and a problem which does need to be fixed, but fix those and a new expression of the resentment which is endemic will surface. Nothing will address the core issue of the feelings which result from some, and on basis of investing relatively little time and effort and by means which de facto exclude many from securing the same benefit, gaining the same reward which takes others twice the time and effort to secure. So long (and with exception of a few noble souls and those who relish leveling slowly like Petej and don't want to use them) as cats are not available to all, there will be resentment and discontent in the community and stresses placed upon those who do have.

The solution:

Make cats available for sale on the mat merchants at cost equivalent to that of obtaining them via op ownership, ie declare + drill building costs divided by the number of cats an op would produce in the period of time it would take for the threshold to fall to point an attack would be viable. This is simple to code, can be rapidly implemented and addresses the following issues:

> non pvp-ers have access to cats which removes the cat-associated feelings of exclusion and resentment at being relegated to have nots for not wanting to fight over toys

> newer players, those in guilds without high level fighters, crafters and others who for whatever reason are unable to own an op, or own an op of the level they need, have means of access to cats

> lower Q op owners, and guilds with many members can secure what their members need and not feel resentment that others have more

> upper Q op owners aren't subject to pressures from those who have less and feel guilt that they have when others do not

> the imbalance inherent in the current situation where the strong get rewards which make them stronger and the chances of the less strong securing a Q250 op grow less and less is addressed

> some at least and quite possibly most of the heat and unpleasantness associated with op fights should disappear as no longer will it be all or none of the most valued resource in the game if one loses. Losing at present means twice the grind and twice the hundreds and hundreds of hours crafters need to spend digging. The sting of losing is less if mats and not needing to earn the money to buy cats is at stake, and with the sting would be expected to go much of the hostility losing engenders at present. The incentive to form alliances and protect what one has would be reduced also, and perhaps ops could then be contested as pvp sport in a friendly atmosphere.

I personally would like op mats to be available for purchase from mat merchants too as non pvp-ers and those disenfranchised for a variety of other reasons could invest time and effort into earning the dappers to acquire them, while those who find pvp fun could invest their time and effort into pvp and have an op produce them for free.

I anticipate that pvp-ers won't like this suggestion as many regard there should be special rewards for pvp. Why? You tell me pvp is fun. Digging isn't fun, so why isn't it enuf reward you get to do something you think is fun to get what I can only get by doing something I don't find fun, and get the reward by investing less time than I have to as well? More time, less fun for same reward looks to me like those who pvp are already advantaged.

To Nevrax, you will never make pvp-ers out of non pvp-ers no matter the rewards nor perfection of op fight mechanics you devise. Others have referred you to surveys showing significant numbers of the gaming community don't want to pvp, games on the horizon with backing sufficient to have done market research and elected no pvp. It will be argued that those who don't pvp can still access the richest reward in the game via the generosity of others or working to earn what others receive for a fraction of the time and effort. Sure we can. But I am far from the only person who has resented feeling relegated to the role of a beggar or mat or item producing servant for those with means of access to production of what I desire.

I do believe strongly that false declares need to be remedied, but at this juncture you need to invest not only in remedying the circumstances of those who pvp, but those who do not, and if anything the latter should take precedence over the former both as we have endured adverse circumstances for longer, and as addressing the inequities inherent in the present structure may in and of itself address the symptoms thereof such as vexatious false declares.

Zysha

There DO need to be rewards for pvp, the rewards for digging are money and crafting, if op mats become avalible to all to buy, then there will be no reson to PvP.

I know some people tarnish the pvpers with a different brush than everyone else, but many mnay pvpers are also RP'ers, Socialists and PvErs, a reason to fight needs to be there in order to make it worthwile and fun.

by your argument, they dont need to add anything for Role players, because they find roleplaying itself rewarding, they dont need anything else to help or reward it.

There are many types of players, just because some people dont like PvP, dose not mean it should be kept out of the game. Some people dont like RP, some people dont like Grouping or guilds, but no one would suggest removing them.

P.S:
I know im only replying to part of your post, but its a point that came up i na fair few others

evalisa wrote: by your argument, they dont need to add anything for Role players, because they find roleplaying itself rewarding, they dont need anything else to help or reward it.

Erm, I've been to every event I could make since I have joined, which is a majority of them since the midpoint of Ep 2. At the moment the only tangible "rewards" for events organised by the Dev Team was that for Ep 2. Another PvPfest.

So perhaps Devs could give out "good roleplaying" crystals and mats for people who stay in-character and make RP events more enjoyable?

And for the PvE hunt loving crowd, new powerful enemies that hold crystals and mats to be looted. Not easy ones, but certainly present.

For those that love digging/crafting, then perhaps treat crystals like Excellent mats and OP mats like Supremes, rare and hard to find or track, but worth looking for.

Reward PvP if you must (I do understand the need for _something_ to fight over), but dont make all other playstyles secondary.

There needs to be another way to acquire the current rewards.
It needn't be anywhere near as effective as the outposts but it does need to be there.

Suggested alternatives
----------------------
1. Crystals from ring missions/scenarios (put forward elsewhere).
2. Add Kami/Kara points to missions that can be traded back at the old temple sites, add some special mats (at extortionate points costs) to the temple dispensers.
3. Add wandering Kami/Kara 'caravans' as raid content with random respawn/level and routes, that can be attacked to yield op content. (Also a good excuse to use the Kami warrior and Karavan marines we've seen in vids and things for a while now).
4. Create a new merchant through which op owners can sell their stuff.

[QUOTE=evalisa]There DO need to be rewards for pvp, the rewards for digging are money and crafting, if op mats become avalible to all to buy, then there will be no reson to PvP.

Hi Evalisa,

What I don't understand is why obtaining op goodies at less financial cost than non pvp-ers, and by doing something pvp-ers regard as fun isn't reward enuf. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I seriously don't understand why ppl who find an activity fun wouldn't do it just for the fun of it even if there was no reward at all, and in what I propose pvp-ers would be rewarded by obtaining op goodies via a method they find fun, receive them for less investment of time and dappers than non pvp players, and have incentive to maintain op ownership for longer to reduce costs still further. Why would there be no reason to pvp?

Why would there be no reason to pvp?

I guess it's the same psychology as would be present behind someone saying "there's no reason to do any combat skill but elemental because ele does the most damage."