A Possible Third Group (Faction ?)

[sprite]

This is why rl analogies suck. Please drop it

Though a point aimed at Jydudas - there should always be a "neutral" / "unaligned" option for people who just plain haven't had the time to join up to the K's. As now, this should be the default for new players.. If you made this new "3rd party" it would have to be something you join as distinct to the "unaligned neutrals". If you just changed the current neutral implementation to get in line with this "3rd party" (and so was the default state for all homins) then there'd be mixed messages and people who were just starting out would be tagged by everyone else as "hominists" or whatever even though they fully intend to join one of the 2 factions.

We're seeing eye-to-eye on this right? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Other thoughts (for everyone, not just jyudas):

- Make it so that 3rdParty followers have their K fame capped to a max of 30 instead of 50 as they've consciously rejected both sides in favour of another... (the choice of 30 is just an example, would need proper choosing, but definately should be below 50) This has the problem of possibly having some people taking the 3rdParty when they actually want to venerate both sides equally and having mechanics being contrary to their beliefs (although you could argue that both powers are "jealous" and would stop you being as buddybuddy with them if you praise the other side as well)

- Allow the 3rdParty followers higher civ fame than neutrals (increase to some value that gives a better economic advantage than 50, but not so high as citizenship) Another option would be to examine the lore to find out which races are "sympathetic" to Elias and give higher fame values to them, but lower ones for races who hate the guy. This is assuming you base the party around a core of Trytonists - if you did it around the Rangers (though the Rangers are supposed to be apolitical right? so kinda wouldn't make sense too much imo) then you could do nice fame for all as I started out saying.

- Give the 3rdParty followers access to the PR TPs closest to the external portals in Umbra only (one in each region) - the Umbra PR are supposedly the closest to the surface anyway, and as well as making them the closest ones to the portals also would suggest that it would be easier for some party to pursuade the powers (or just the homins running the TPs) to give another group access. This is only possible if the TP fame restrictions are based on a "yes/no" check of factionhood instead of a value check on fame (since point 2 keeps faction fame beneath 60). This would probably mean they'd get Kara Windy Gate, Kara EF, Kara ToT (this is getting odd... nerf the Kamis! ) and I don't know the relative locations in the other zone.

- Give the 3rdParty followers one of the 250 TPs in Loria and in Scorched Corridor (the two races most likely to be sympathetic to non-faction-aligned homins). Possibly make it the Kami one in both to balance out the fact they get (only?) Kara TPs in PR. I'm only saying to give them 2 of a possible 4 250 TPs because otherwise they'd have almost identical destinations as factioned players and I'd hope this would be a fair compromise?

- Make 3rdParty followers KoS to kami and kara temple guards, regardless of personal fame. Again refer to my first point about why they should get neither (plus the temples are just for the faithful in theory). You'd then have to make a Trytonist/Ranger camp (depending on how you structured the party) somewhere on the surface which allowed anyone to enter (these guys are "nice" remember) but had mission givers/reward givers only for their followers (still holding out for faction rewards here... Kami and Kara temples have reward givers so I guess the new guys should get some too).

[danolt]

If the players who decide not to become factioned get 80% of the benefits (for free) of those who earn factional rewards would that be enough? Because the answer is apparently, no. Because that is what is now.

I think creating a third group that could be named " the all things for all people to get all the benefits for free" faction is ludicrous. Instead of adding that third faction, they should just have the K's die of the flu because they become pointless.

Adding the four races creates secular competition. It adds more to the game without weakening an existing group, something I am fairly certain I have heard someone say their against. There will be a lot more room for neutrals to grow in a competition that does not involve spiritual matters. I have never heard of a devout atheist, who once hired to spread the word but then would continually criticizes the religion that hired him, being all that successful as a paid employee. The basic ideal of a religion is to try to follow and maybe spread the ideals of that religion. It is not to hire mercs.

Being non factioned may have been presented as viable equal option in Beta but those who bought and paid to play this game were never presented with anything from Nevrax to suggest that doing nothing would yield the same rewards as joining the factions. In fact, they have been very upfront about the fact that would not be the case.

Hopefully, this whole discussion becomes moot because enough stuff will be added in the near future that will keep everyone busy.

[jamela]

I'd say that the likeliest candidate for a third faction would be the Marauders. No leadership or common goal, just a disparate group that are disenchanted with the prevailing powers; the Cults and Nations. They presumably have no access to teleports whatsoever, are probably KoS in the civilized towns of the four nations, yet enjoy a tense ceasefire with all of the Tribes, perhaps because they are responsible for the Atys black market. That may allow their members to respawn in the tribal settlements where their Fame is sufficient. Close association with the Tribes has also taught them how to live alongside the kitin without arousing their aggression, as the Tribes do.

[grimjim]

Though a point aimed at Jydudas - there should always be a "neutral" / "unaligned" option for people who just plain haven't had the time to join up to the K's. As now, this should be the default for new players.. If you made this new "3rd party" it would have to be something you join as distinct to the "unaligned neutrals". If you just changed the current neutral implementation to get in line with this "3rd party" (and so was the default state for all homins) then there'd be mixed messages and people who were just starting out would be tagged by everyone else as "hominists" or whatever even though they fully intend to join one of the 2 factions.

No.

Apparently I'm not being clear enough about what I mean, so I'll try again.

Under what I propose we would not be implementing a third faction in the sense of Kami, Karavan & 'X' are the three factions battling over the world. That would be self-defeating and remove much of the point of being neutral for a lot of people - self determination.

I am talking about changing things for the current neutrals, restoring game functionality for them to where it was.

The 'core' of this, providing the rationale for the restored functionality would be the Trytonists since they have access to the technology and knowledge and the motivation to provide for unaligned homin, but by being neutral you would not necessarily be 'Trytonist'.

You would still be free to call yourself whatever you wanted and act however you wanted.

When it came down to things like the temple war the Trytonist core would be used to provide rationale and introduction of a more effective 'third way' but again, you wouldn't be forced into doing anything for it if you didn't want to, it just provides for more options that can be self interpreted.

- Make it so that 3rdParty followers have their K fame capped to a max of 30 instead of 50 as they've consciously rejected both sides in favour of another...

If a 'fully strapped' third faction were added, this would make sense. Under what I propose that wouldn't necessarily make sense but some restriction on the TP replacements (or whatever) the neutrals have access to, based on fame (the closer to 0 the better) makes sense.

- Allow the 3rdParty followers higher civ fame than neutrals (increase to some value that gives a better economic advantage than 50, but not so high as citizenship) Another option would be to examine the lore to find out which races are "sympathetic" to Elias and give higher fame values to them, but lower ones for races who hate the guy.

Neutral civilisation stance is an entirely seperate issue to neutral faction stance and I think should be made clear and distinct and dealt with seperately. That said, the Fyros and Tryker would seem to be the most sympathetic - particularly the Tryker - while the Matis and Zorai would be the least.

- Give the 3rdParty followers access to the PR TPs closest to the external portals in Umbra only (one in each region) - the Umbra PR are supposedly the closest to the surface anyway, and as well as making them the closest ones to the portals also would suggest that it would be easier for some party to pursuade the powers (or just the homins running the TPs) to give another group access.

In an ideal world I would do the following...

1. Restore neutral TP access to outlying Tryker towns (We still have the Fyros ones and the Tryker are the other most neutral race, so it makes sense. Now every group would have easy access to two sets of 250 towns).

2. Give the Neutrals direct TP access to two 250 zones, not all four. As above, Fyros and Tryker are probably the best bet.

3. Restore Neutral access via normal means (faction TPs) to the lower PR zones.

4. Add 'Trytonist' TPs at inflated prices in PR 250 zones, OR (for easier coding) have Trytonist 'TP Hackers' wandering the area NEAR to the TPs and able to sell you expensive knock-off tickets.

- Make 3rdParty followers KoS to kami and kara temple guards, regardless of personal fame. Again refer to my first point about why they should get neither (plus the temples are just for the faithful in theory). You'd then have to make a Trytonist/Ranger camp (depending on how you structured the party) somewhere on the surface which allowed anyone to enter (these guys are "nice" remember) but had mission givers/reward givers only for their followers (still holding out for faction rewards here... Kami and Kara temples have reward givers so I guess the new guys should get some too).

Again, if I were talking about a 'fully strapped' third party I'd agree with this, but I'm not

I do think we need something like a 'hidden Trytonist village' with neutral lore available for perusal somewhere in game though.

I might just make my own as an R2 scenario though, for now

[mrshad]

Stuff wasn't taken away from the K's. (In terms of access, not in terms of raw numbers of TPs)

Ahh...we come to it at last.

When the fame patch was put is, the 'porters were taken from everyone at the same time. After the patch, no one was factioned.

Everyone had to declair thier alligience. Everyone had to earn fame. Everyone had to do the rite.

Everyone, of course, except for the neutrals, to whom the option is still clearly open; and most of whom are really okay with the current situation.

GJ, I don't think you reasoned yourself into this position. I see now that you can't be reasoned out of it. You had somethign once for free that now you are being forced to pay for. You value your feeling of supieriority more than you want the teleporters. That would be fine if you would leave it there and quit complaining, but you can't. You want both. You want easy transport without any commitment.

Your sense of entitlement overrides your sense of reason.

[mrshad]

Flawed.

"You start giving all three children half-pieces of candy in a mediocre flavour. You tell them that they can have more and better if they will do some yard work at the local church. Two of them acquiesce and start receiving the better candy again. The third refuses to do the work to earn the candy back, apparently preferring to live without it. But, he won't live quietly - at every opportunity, he complains and whines about how awful it is to lack the candy and how things should be the way they used to be."

This is perfect!

[danolt]

Again, if I were talking about a 'fully strapped' third party I'd agree with this, but I'm not

I do think we need something like a 'hidden Trytonist village' with neutral lore available for perusal somewhere in game though.

Stuff like this is how I hope the game turns out. I am not opposed to the rise of a 3rd faction, I just want to see scenarios presented where players have the ability to create it, not an expansion pack. I am fairly certain that in plot line a Homin based faction will arise. I would prefer it was earned not implemented as a hastily announced patch.

In that same vain, I would like to see that sort of thing for every group. I am hopeful that a development team with R2 tools can make permanent additions to the official play area that reflects player actions. With NPC's accepting donations from players in the same way as the temple event. The developers can monitor the player base and adjust accordingly.

I want the rise of Atys to be an in game thing, not a forum thing.

[mrshad]

In an ideal world I would do the following...

1. Restore neutral TP access to outlying Tryker towns (We still have the Fyros ones and the Tryker are the other most neutral race, so it makes sense. Now every group would have easy access to two sets of 250 towns).

Um...that is a problem, isn't it?
You would have parity with the Ks without the commitment.
Leave the count how it is. Dyron is the big high-level market place anyway.

2. Give the Neutrals direct TP access to two 250 zones, not all four. As above, Fyros and Tryker are probably the best bet.

I guess this would almost be okay.

3. Restore Neutral access via normal means (faction TPs) to the lower PR zones.

Again, this would almost be okay, depending on the details.

4. Add 'Trytonist' TPs at inflated prices in PR 250 zones, OR (for easier coding) have Trytonist 'TP Hackers' wandering the area NEAR to the TPs and able to sell you expensive knock-off tickets.

This makes it almost look reasonable.

It would take care of all my major complaints, and it would be easier to implement.

It would not, really, work with the lore.
To make it lore compliant, we would need entirely separate teleporters.
I doubt the Ks could be so easily tricked.

[grimjim]

Everyone, of course, except for the neutrals, to whom the option is still clearly open; and most of whom are really okay with the current situation.

No. They aren't.
You don't hear from a lot because they left. Either due to the Temple war, the OPs, the faction-forcing or simply because not much has been done to support them and we have no idea where GF is heading.

Those that have stayed have factioned for TPs, compromising their RP and creating a false impression that bullying works for the devs, or struggle on. A lot not bothering with the forums any more because they run into [dung] like this.

GJ, I don't think you reasoned yourself into this position. I see now that you can't be reasoned out of it. You had somethign once for free that now you are being forced to pay for. You value your feeling of supieriority more than you want the teleporters. That would be fine if you would leave it there and quit complaining, but you can't. You want both. You want easy transport without any commitment. Your sense of entitlement overrides your sense of reason.

There's several threads here.
While those that factioned did have to work for it, they had to work for it once and once only.
They recieved some additional incentives on top.
The only ones to get a net loss were the neutrals.

There are matters of RP.
There are matters of lore.
There are matters of good gameplay.
There are matters of good customer relations and player retention.
There are matters of game history and previous player action.

All of which combine in not creating speedbumps in the way of people who play a particular way. This is the same lack of foresight and, perhaps, arrogance behind the problems with OPs and even the Ring.

They needn't necessarily be equal, or as easy, or as numerous (see what me and Spriteh both talk about above) but they should be accessible.

[grimjim]

Um...that is a problem, isn't it?
You would have parity with the Ks without the commitment.
Leave the count how it is. Dyron is the big high-level market place anyway.

Personally I don't think it makes sense for any of the towns to be locked out. A common role for neutrals is as traders and crafters. The K's only harm their puppet-state economies by denying full access to neutrals who bring dapper and crafts in.

Yes, it gives parity, but it doesn't mirror either existing one and the Tryker high market is pretty rubbish (at least for mats).

It would not, really, work with the lore.
To make it lore compliant, we would need entirely separate teleporters.
I doubt the Ks could be so easily tricked.

The K's have no good reason for denying neutrals as they currently exist access as described above.

The reason I talk about Trytonists as being the core (not the nature) of the revised 'neutral' stance is because they have the motivation and the technology for the TPs you talk about above, but I'm thinking from a coding PoV it would be easier to use the existing ones in some fashion.

Tryton is called 'Jenas husband' so in that instance perhaps it makes more sense that he could provide a 'hack' for the Karavan TPs.