Neutral PVP tag: [was] Kami vs Karavan vs Neutral

[grimjim]

rofl....Yep it does balance out... thank you for agreeing ttyl

See, you were with me all along.

[raven41]

ROFL! You're crazy you know that right? Anyway.. was fun debating with ya... I will be going out soon so HF and say hi to Kos for me

[totnkopf]

But there is sacrifice. What's that worth?

The same thing could be asked of you, Judy.

You fight to remain neutral because you don't wish to become involved with the 'god' powers of Atys (whether you believe they are or not, the game mechanics are set up so that they are. Your RP doesn't change the fact that they allow you to keep living (respawning), limit the resources you dig in an area, or kill any mob you drag into the guards at kami shrines (notice they don't even get hurt by bosses?)). You choose to walk 'the middle path'... defying both gods and therefore forfeit their powers and gifts that they give to their faithful. That is a choice that YOU make. YOU choose to go neutral and thus choose to take the harder path. No one said neutral was easy. You choose to defy the gods, thats your choice, and you can do without the gifts they grant.
Going neutral is extremely easy to do. There is no work. Create char and, BAM, neutral. wow... now go Kami or Kara... work that fame to 30, take the trials, now work your fame up to 60 so that you can access the TPs, etc. Earn their respect by showing your devotion, you get a reward.
Neutral has no reward. You have no god power on your side because you chose to cast those on Atys aside, and thus you have no one to give you gifts such as access to PR or high level zones. Would a homin be able to give these gifts? no way. If that were true, then how would that homin be any different from a god? The Kami are obviously much stronger than any homin, as are the Karavan. They are able to cheat death on a daily basis. allowing us to remain on Atys.

As for neutrals getting a PvP tag.... nope. This is a war. the two sides: Kami v karavan. If you're not on either side, you're a civilian or someone not involved. Mercs, in real life anyway, usually abide by a set of standards and are more often than not, hired by the same side. However, I believe that the samsara is RPing based off a stereotype of mercs (something similar to the pirate one... "arrr... we be after gold, we be and we be taking it from anyones thats gots it"). You're playing a video game... and games are limited to the manner in which the game mechanics are placed. If you were in the real world, you could do all that you have listed here, but the fact remains that the god powers are not on your side. You chose to ignore them, defy them, belittle thier name, so don't expect rewards similar to those that we get for actually following them (and grinding our fame to do so).

Giving neutrals a pvp tag would be officially recognizing them as a valid faction. Good? maybe. There are so many things that can be considered neutral that having them all under one faction may not work. Also, you're now a whole new faction... so bye bye kami/kara TPs... and get out that Mount gear and hiking boots since there no way the gods will help you now. You're neutral... you're had to grind your neutral fame up (perhaps based on an average of your homeland civ fame with the major tribes of that land. ex: Matis fame, Green Seed, Matysian border guard, etc.). You've shown that you're not interested in what the kami or kara have to offer. You've even gone that extra mile to remove yourself from the 'available list' by working your neutral fame. You think the neutral life is hard now... imgaine an Atys where you have to trek everywhere... one where death is final. You might be lucky enough to be saved from death once or twice by the gods ("we have spared you from death in a show of our power. Join us and we can assure you death will not be final. Defy us and we will not save you and your soul will be lost to the depths"), but why would a god respawn someone who is going to constantly ignore them, or worse, speak out against them? They won't. That person dies, problem solved. There are other souls worth their time and power.

Now would this ever happen? no. For starters, barely anyone would go neutral. It would be very hard to do (not impossible though) and would require dedication to their ideals and their freedom. Secondly, every neutral out there would start complaining things weren't fair. "we have to trek everywhere..." or "I died, didn't get a rez, and now my chars deleted"... Yea, its not fair, but making a faction that has no god power equal to those that do would make the gods seem powerless and pointless. You chose to defy the very gods that saved us from the kitin, the gods that control Atys, and thus you chose a very hard life. Notice the choose part... you have to actually choose to be neutral. Work neutral fame, etc. Which brings me to the default status in this tri-faction version of the game... undecided. They'd get what neutrals have now, but it'd be on a timer... yep, a timer. 2 months from the chars creation date then you're forced to pick a side upon login. Bummer isn't it, but hey, whats the point of neutral if you could just go undecided.

This game is a game about Atys... a world on which a war between two god races rages on (it wasn't a first, but thats because nevrax hadn't created the game that was supposed to be there at release. go read the manual that came with the game. Notice all that stuff about kami/kara war, OPs, etc?). If you choose to go neutral, don't expect to be rewarded with powers that are given to the faithful. Neutral isn't meant to be easy. Its meant to be a challenge. You choose to do it, so stop complaining about it. If its really that much of a hassle, then man up and pick a faction. If you find that you dislike their teachings so much or their "brainwashing" so much that you go neutral, then you choose to give up the benefits of following them. Can't have that cookie and eat it too.

RPing also should not dictate the way in which a game should go. I could RP that I was a homin from 2005 on Atys. Does that mean I should have the game mechanics in place for me to pull up in Dyron in my escalade, bumping the bass, after my quick visit to Home Depot for enough crafting supplies to make master? No way. It'd be funny, but its not an option. The whole merc RP thing... its possible the way the system is now. The system the way it is now is actually better than allowing anyone to hit anyone when neutral.... as it is now, you'd have to work to change sides... something that all kami/kara would have to do. You want that "double pay" then you're going to have to double the work.... bummer, huh? can't get nothing for free.


Anyway, that was a much longer post that I had anticpated. To wrap up:
Neutrals fine the way it is now.
it was never meant to be a full faction.
No gods, no rewards (doesn't mean no rites... those would be acceptable. Things like new crafting plans or stat boost. Hey, maybe even map markers!)
No pvp tag. Not your fight so stay out of it. If you want to be involved, go grind your fame like the rest of us did.

[katriell]

This thread has become interesting, yet off topic. Why is it that whenever neutral options for pvp is discussed the subject always drifts to the "unfair treatment of neutrals" by the devs?

Because Grimjim posts in it.

Disclaimer:
This is not meant as a personal attack. It is merely a statement of the most frequent and likely cause for thread drift towards better-treatment-of-neutrals picketing.

[ajsuk]

lol - I've been reading this over the past couple days and just cracking up, I'd have to go with the above post.

[grimjim]

Because Grimjim posts in it.

Disclaimer:
This is not meant as a personal attack. It is merely a statement of the most frequent and likely cause for thread drift towards better-treatment-of-neutrals picketing.

More accurately...

I post on it.

Someone 'has a go' and brings other aspects into it, to which I reply.

Carry on

[grimjim]

You fight to remain neutral because you don't wish to become involved with the 'god' powers of Atys (whether you believe they are or not, the game mechanics are set up so that they are. Your RP doesn't change the fact that they allow you to keep living (respawning), limit the resources you dig in an area, or kill any mob you drag into the guards at kami shrines (notice they don't even get hurt by bosses?)). You choose to walk 'the middle path'... defying both gods and therefore forfeit their powers and gifts that they give to their faithful. That is a choice that YOU make. YOU choose to go neutral and thus choose to take the harder path. No one said neutral was easy. You choose to defy the gods, thats your choice, and you can do without the gifts they grant.

But then neutral is also used as the default for 'undecided' homin, which is why. RP wise maybe either side is hoping they can convert the other. Similarly there's the OOC matter of retaining and interesting and viable game for all players which comes into the implementation of mechanics on an OOC basis. At present parts of it don't particularly make sense.

No, nobody said it was easy, the matter this thread is actually supposed to be about is about giving neutral players the option of a PvP tag. That's all. I don't see that detracting from anyone else, all I see it doing is giving the broad swathe of neutral ground some extra options and the ability to act more freely.

Going neutral is extremely easy to do. There is no work. Create char and, BAM, neutral. wow... now go Kami or Kara... work that fame to 30, take the trials, now work your fame up to 60 so that you can access the TPs, etc. Earn their respect by showing your devotion, you get a reward.
Neutral has no reward. You have no god power on your side because you chose to cast those on Atys aside, and thus you have no one to give you gifts such as access to PR or high level zones. Would a homin be able to give these gifts? no way. If that were true, then how would that homin be any different from a god? The Kami are obviously much stronger than any homin, as are the Karavan. They are able to cheat death on a daily basis. allowing us to remain on Atys.

But, we're talking about effort, we're talking about sacrifice. There may not be a lot of direct work but there IS sacrifice. Homin aren't any different from these 'gods' save they don't have as much access to high technology. The gods are hypocritical, capricious and (through lore and events) clearly don't seem, overall, to have the homin's best interest truly at heart. No god worth worshipping.

As for neutrals getting a PvP tag.... nope. This is a war. the two sides: Kami v karavan. If you're not on either side, you're a civilian or someone not involved. Mercs, in real life anyway, usually abide by a set of standards and are more often than not, hired by the same side. However, I believe that the samsara is RPing based off a stereotype of mercs (something similar to the pirate one... "arrr... we be after gold, we be and we be taking it from anyones thats gots it"). You're playing a video game... and games are limited to the manner in which the game mechanics are placed. If you were in the real world, you could do all that you have listed here, but the fact remains that the god powers are not on your side. You chose to ignore them, defy them, belittle thier name, so don't expect rewards similar to those that we get for actually following them (and grinding our fame to do so).

Guess what. Civilians die in wars all the time. Some take up arms. UN observers get hit by stray bombs or fire weapons in the defence of refugees. Mercenaries get hired for various tasks and fight and die for money, not the cause or the government of either side. Or take the Spanish civil war for a great RL example, so many sides and splinter groups.

I don't see PvP tagging as a reward, but I do see it as a valid choice and its implementation as fair for those neutrals who wish to engage in it. Versatility should be the compensation for passing up on specialisation and loyalty based rewards.

Giving neutrals a pvp tag would be officially recognizing them as a valid faction. Good? maybe. There are so many things that can be considered neutral that having them all under one faction may not work.

But then, they wouldn't be a faction still would they? It's just a mechanical way of representing those that wish to act in such a way but not pin their banner to one side or the other. It isn't a new faction (unless they made it 'Trytonist' but that wouldn't apply to many neutrals, so no, there'd be no loss of TPs or services, nor neutral fame. You're thinking of it as a faction when it wouldn't be.

Defy us and we will not save you and your soul will be lost to the depths"), but why would a god respawn someone who is going to constantly ignore them, or worse, speak out against them? They won't. That person dies, problem solved. There are other souls worth their time and power.

Why do people leave Gideon bibles or, based on religious motivation, witness to kids in schools with unformed ideas or run soup kitchens? The hope of converts. Why, in Atys, can we resurrect at natural portals and nexi without Kami or Karavan assistance?

This game is a game about Atys... a world on which a war between two god races rages on (it wasn't a first, but thats because nevrax hadn't created the game that was supposed to be there at release. go read the manual that came with the game. Notice all that stuff about kami/kara war, OPs, etc?). If you choose to go neutral, don't expect to be rewarded with powers that are given to the faithful. Neutral isn't meant to be easy. Its meant to be a challenge. You choose to do it, so stop complaining about it. If its really that much of a hassle, then man up and pick a faction. If you find that you dislike their teachings so much or their "brainwashing" so much that you go neutral, then you choose to give up the benefits of following them. Can't have that cookie and eat it too.

Why is your view of the possibilities so fundamentally limited? Why do you view it only in terms of reward or greed for reward? That says far more about you than anyone else. That's reflected in your, rather limited, view of the only possibility as being that of creating neutral as an actual faction. There's the rub, it contains so many different points of view that treating it that way simply wouldn't work. Providing a mechanic to allow greater freedom on the other hand, that enables and provides for the expression of more points of view.

RPing also should not dictate the way in which a game should go. I could RP that I was a homin from 2005 on Atys. Does that mean I should have the game mechanics in place for me to pull up in Dyron in my escalade, bumping the bass, after my quick visit to Home Depot for enough crafting supplies to make master? No way. It'd be funny, but its not an option. The whole merc RP thing... its possible the way the system is now. The system the way it is now is actually better than allowing anyone to hit anyone when neutral.... as it is now, you'd have to work to change sides... something that all kami/kara would have to do. You want that "double pay" then you're going to have to double the work.... bummer, huh? can't get nothing for free.

I think you're mistaking RP for 'pulling stuff out of your ass'. RP fits within and reflects lore and events but it isn't enforced or pigeonholed and, as I said before, if an interactive entertainment doesn't respond to the actions of its players, it's pretty much boned.

it was never meant to be a full faction.
No gods, no rewards (doesn't mean no rites... those would be acceptable. Things like new crafting plans or stat boost. Hey, maybe even map markers!)
No pvp tag. Not your fight so stay out of it. If you want to be involved, go grind your fame like the rest of us did.

Nobody has suggested it BE a full faction. You seem to have very limited and set interpretations of possibilities.

[jamela]

My thoughts on the "neutral tag" is there shouldn't be one at all. If you are an undeclared homin attempting to heal a tagged combatant you should get a message stating that this would make you a combatant and allow you to cancel the action. Proceeding with the action should give you a "temporary enemy flag", in effect tagging you as a combatant Kami should you heal a Kami player. A neutral should not be able to initiate factional combat AT ALL until they have become "teffed" by conducting a benificial action such as healing.

...

This temporary flag could be handled in a couple ways:
1) just treat it the same as the current pvp flag. 30 minutes before you can take it off, with a ten minute non combat window required.

...

This sounds practical to me. I imagine it would be horribly awkward to code, though, accounting for bomb heals. There's a thousand things I'd rather Nevrax looked at first. I see absolutely no reason why an undeclared homin should be entirely unable to aid their factioned friends. I think you should earn Fame for doing so, too - more negative than positive.

[totnkopf]

But, we're talking about effort, we're talking about sacrifice. There may not be a lot of direct work but there IS sacrifice. Homin aren't any different from these 'gods' save they don't have as much access to high technology. The gods are hypocritical, capricious and (through lore and events) clearly don't seem, overall, to have the homin's best interest truly at heart. No god worth worshipping.

you wish to remain 'free and untainted'? then you give up your high level TPs and PR. Yes, you sacrifice, but its something you CHOSE to do. Don't whine about something you chose to inflict upon yourself.
as for them not being gods, how do you explain their ability to control all homins digging or the fact that they are practically invulnerable to harm? Technology? I don't see a kami guard using any of it.

Guess what. Civilians die in wars all the time. Some take up arms. UN observers get hit by stray bombs or fire weapons in the defence of refugees. Mercenaries get hired for various tasks and fight and die for money, not the cause or the government of either side. Or take the Spanish civil war for a great RL example, so many sides and splinter groups.

sure, civilians die all the time. Buildings get blown up too. None of that happens in Atys because its a video game and there are limits to how real it can get. Are those civilians ever considered combatants? nope.

I don't see PvP tagging as a reward, but I do see it as a valid choice and its implementation as fair for those neutrals who wish to engage in it. Versatility should be the compensation for passing up on specialisation and loyalty based rewards.

again, you chose to pass those things up. You make the choice to sacrifice them, so stop whining about it. You don't want the high level tps? fine, don't take em, but don't expect something just because you've turned your nose up at the god powers.

But then, they wouldn't be a faction still would they? It's just a mechanical way of representing those that wish to act in such a way but not pin their banner to one side or the other. It isn't a new faction (unless they made it 'Trytonist' but that wouldn't apply to many neutrals, so no, there'd be no loss of TPs or services, nor neutral fame. You're thinking of it as a faction when it wouldn't be

So you want to take part in a war, but not take either side... hm.... seems like exactly like they wish to act in such a way on not pin their banner on either side. You want in? fine, pick a side. You don't see many baseball games where the spectators decide to form their own team and join in after the 4th inning. You know why? because the game doesn't work that way and neither does this one.

Why do people leave Gideon bibles or, based on religious motivation, witness to kids in schools with unformed ideas or run soup kitchens? The hope of converts. Why, in Atys, can we resurrect at natural portals and nexi without Kami or Karavan assistance?

big difference between a bowl of soup and saving a person from death. Also if a person shows up at a soup kitchen and generally is a pest... belittles the staff, throws the food given to them away, is essentially an ass, they'll be asked not to come back.
As for rezing at the portals, who says that has nothing to do with the gods? I certainly don't see any proof that they're not the ones doing it...

Why is your view of the possibilities so fundamentally limited?

pot calling the kettle black

Why do you view it only in terms of reward or greed for reward?

correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the one whining up a storm about Ep 2 rewards and how you HAD to pvp because you needed those rewards? So what you're saying is that you don't want rewards unless the kami or kara get some and if they do get some then you do want the rewards, but until then, you're ok.

I think you're mistaking RP for 'pulling stuff out of your ass'. RP fits within and reflects lore and events but it isn't enforced or pigeonholed and, as I said before, if an interactive entertainment doesn't respond to the actions of its players, it's pretty much boned.

lol... I've seen a ton of RP in Ryzom that would fit into that category.
As for responding to the players actions, they have. The number of kami and karavan outnumber the neutrals. Those who wished to PvP have picked a side. Are you really seriously saying that nevrax should constantly listen to the minority? puh-leese...

Nobody has suggested it BE a full faction. You seem to have very limited and set interpretations of possibilities.

So you're asking for a PvP tag, otherwise known as a FACTION TAG, for a group of people who have no faction and have chosen to remove themselves from the war. If neutrals want to pvp, then they can go down to the roots or duel... they have no role in factional fights. You chose to become a merc in a game that doesn't necessarily allow for you to fight both sides. Just because you can't do that doesn't mean it should be changed.

[aardnebb]

*sigh* Addressed to various people, naming no names to avoid giving offense

Fame grinds: Some of us work _extremely_ hard to maintain a near-perfectly balanced fame, allowing us to switch factions quickly for things like Ep 2 (See Rashan as an example). Its even more annoying if you want to do rites etc without disturbing your cult fame...

So no more rubbish about us not working on fame... given the new fame starting values for some EG 20 kami for Zorai? its more work to go to +1/-1 than it is to hit 30 kami and sign up!

I dont understand why you are whining that "PvP tags should be faction only!", I mean heck, if you enjoy PvP shouldnt you want more people to take part? Frankly wouldnt you enjoy seeing a "whiny neutral" wandering around with a tag on, so you can tag up and get your own back?

It would not be particularly hard to set up a selectable tag for neutrals without even _touching_ the PvP layers that have had issues (such as the OP battle non-participant healing.) from other patches. Throw in Fame side effects if you wish, heck that'll even make staying neutral a lot of work, while you guys have it easy, one short grind to 60 fame and then coast...

Quick aside: neutral healing in OP battles does not equal "neutral faction" healers, its people who _did not select an op flag_ and so are not attackable.

Lack of 250 Town TPs,mainly tryker which is a PITA! but also Matis/Zorai are mildly annoying, interfere with trade, selling and buying outside of Dyron (which is a bit annoying for Kara to reach I believe). I really feel sorry for tryker newbies... you wouldnt believe how many show up, spend about a day swiming everywhere, then request a trek first thing because the time it takes to get everywhere... I've done 3 tryker -> zorai treks in the last week, and only 1 fyros -> zorai.

The game as is nerfs neutrals, maybe you think thats the way it "should" be. We know the game is an evolving flexible thing. And the devs listen, we'll find out sooner or later what they think about it.