Ryzom

murmadog wrote:Даго борется за теплое, доброе, вечное?..

LOL The Good The Bad and The Ugly

fiach wrote:LOL The Good The Bad and The Ugly

how can you decipher that tried to change the font but that didnt work

(Psst... It's Russian... )

(thanks.... that explains it..)

akovylin wrote:Pity but there's no booms, fame, titles or any other symbolic features only cats flowers and resources, I see symbolic means in WoW PvP - tabards, factions rep, titles and etc not here. No any significant lore factions higher powers reactions in ops - nothing, only cats and resources - so they are aim of my will. If they will give me nice glowing aura that shine different colors for lots of op wars - oooh i will greatly fight for it not that "uber cats" Most pity that after 240lvl without cats its realy hard and unpleasant cause not me all other ppl in team get lowered exp From this point maybe cats are other bug fix Before 200-220lvl there no any need in them atall imho - lvls are getting resonably proportinal with efforst ppls envolved and etc. (maybe except of forage/craft)

Second i try to say that Alliances that redestribute cats - its in fact the community bug fix - that many ppl get nothing for they activities and i think that this bug fix indeed must be implemented by nevrax not community. I argue (maybe not much but try) for ingame trade and ingame rewards distribution and think these things shouldn't take place outside of game.

I think that bad are not cats (and mats) bad are the ways they are obtained - the ways must be more diversed

I like your post - but will look at a couple of points from my view point

There are no faction reps, titles or much else to win from OP´s - thats is 100% correct. Only thing it realy shows is which alliance is stronger at that current time period - or perceived to be stronger. So I agree - there are many things that can be done with OP´s. I still however, think that cats are a fair enough part of them. You say cats are a part of your "will" - if I understand you correctly then yes - you fight for them - but you would also fight for titles and other "prizes" - so its realy all the same at the end of the day. The problem is not the cats - but the lack of content involving Op´s.

I agree 100& that there should be more ways to obtain cats - that again involves more input from G.Forge.

You say that cats are not needed before level 240 more or less. Well i have an argument for both sides:

1) Cats are never needed - by anyone. Homins were on Atys way before cats existed. Homins became Masters in many skills before cats existed. Cats are just another way to power level. If you know how to power level without cats - then you have the same level ratio increase (if not more) than someone using them. So I am clear they are never "needed" - which is why I laugh at all the people making them to be so bad - where (as I gave my point of view several times) - they should be looking at more important things from G.Forge and focusing on real content being added.

2)The other side of the coin is that cats are very useful for some people. Those that can only come to Atys an hour here or there - maybe only 3 in a week. It is nice for them to achieve something in that hour they are on - even if its just a couple of levels. Or some people just "want" to level faster and find they have to "solo" so much as Ryzom has a low population - and when that person is online they have bad luck that it is a time period when everyone (or the majority) are at work/sleeping.

3)If you think cats are not needed before level 240 or needed after - then this is a contradiction in your way of thinking. I have myself at level 240 in Ele - the only reason I have not taken it higher is becuase I am working other skills. At 240 there is always the option of getting a plod team/shalah etc - and many people with some skill they wish to use. I have been with quite a fair few people now - and helped them to obtain their last few levels to get masters. When I want my AoD - I will get it - and will have friends to help me. Do I need cats? No!! Will I use cats??? Maybe a few - as I have made my way to 240 without using very many at all - just a stack on the level before the new spells - i.e 184 - to get 185 and new upgrades. 234 to get to 235 and new upgrades. Did I need them? No! Why did I use them? Cause I wanted to.

4) Cats will be viewed by many people as diffeerent things - no one is right and noone is wrong - it is purely down to ones perspective. However, I do believe that everyone has the right to make a choice - its called "freedom". So if someone wants to be lazy and use cats all the way to 250 - then thats fine by me. If somone wants to level all the way to 250 without them - that is fine by me. If someone like myself likes to use them on the odd occasion and grinds the rest - then that is fine by me. It is all a freedom of choice.


I have a three step solution to problems (which is only my construtive effort to give ideas) :

1)Let people stop debating on cats - and focus on real issues like content -and have threads set up to get "good ideas" of what people want. Allocate people to be representaitves for the community - from both kami and Kara - putting aside nonsense for a real cause. Let these issues be re-addressed to G.Forge. (yes I am aware that poeple have previously tried to get G.Forge attention focused on issues).

2)Let OP battles be what they are - drop the crap of alliance (outside of a role-playing position) and just let OP´s be fun. This community is what WE make it - not what Karavan or Kami alliance says it is. I will electricute every last one of you at an OP battle - whether you be my friend/family/g.friend/previous ally - then go hunting with you after. It is the individual that decides on how they will "behave" towards another player. Even if you dislike somone or their guild - you can still be civil to them. I dont hunt with "kami" or "kara" - I hunt with people that are friends - or that will become friends. So realy - to sum up point 2 - being friendly and just using the alliances as part of the game, but making it an enjoyable part - well this will make the community stronger and happier.

3)Bring in your friends, family, partners, work mates - whoever! When they see they can join up to a real game where there is real fun -with real choices to make *shall I use cats* *shall I become Kami, Kara or Neutral* then player bae will increase. The more it increases the more poeple will want to join.

To do that we have to be united as a community. Factions are supposed to be there for fun/something to do/content/role-play. We are here to make each other have a good time.


*by the way Akovylin - I rambled and rambled on - this was by no way aimed at you - it is aimed at all of us *

twina wrote:We are here to make each other have a good time.

[sarcasm]
Ha, you cannot force me to have a good time! I will be angry and frustrated just to spite your totalitarian regime! Bah! Humbug! Good time, good time, I don't think so... *wanders off muttering*
[/sarcasm]



+1 to that post. Why can't we all just get along?

twina wrote:What i mean by this - is that you should make the questions unbiased and not with personal contempt.

A question such as : no keep cats production as it is - followed by ! cats are too precious! shows us that the oringinal poll is not authentic and not realy worth answering -as many people may feel that cats are fine the way they are with current production rates - but they may not tick a "yes" to that question due to the obvious sarcasm stating that they are so precious.

I don't know the creator's intent, but I took the word "precious" as admiration of a wonderful thing not contempt. I must be too old .

twina wrote:It is not Gameforges fault that players react so strongly to each other - it is the community that is responsable - we as people are capable of realising that sides will be chosen and that if we choose one side that is OUR choice. Gameforge does not make players abusive or make them bring things down to a personal level - opinions and view points should be respected - but insults not traded - unless in a friendly "fun" meant way.

I think whether or not it's GF's fault depends on how you approach the problem. One can eitehr ignore human nature or plan for it. The concept of "attractive nuisance" is one well recognized is most civilized countries. OP and cats definitely fit the definition. For example, if an adult leaves a loaded gun in a nightstand drawer or a refrigerator out at the curb and a kid dies as a result, is it the adult's fault ? One could argue that the kid had no business looking in grandpa's nightstand or playing with the neighbor's trash but most would say "yes, the adult should have recognized teh threat".

It's not just kids, construction sites are fenced to keep curious adults out of harm's way. Landowners also have a "duty of care" where there is a reasonable expectation of negative impact. A landowner allowing or simply not taking active steps to stop hunters from using his property is one example.

There will always be resentment when there are "Have's and "Have nots". Using freudian terms, our ego may control our baser desires and have peeps acting all polite and stuff but the id is still screaming "Hey, I want my share". When you are a "have", the most common response is "what is everyone all upset about ?" ..... the historical "let em eat cake" argument. When one is on the other side, te proverbial "shoe being on the other foot". it's amzing how fast attitudes change.

So when people have a chance of getting "their share" whether through hard work or fair competition the resentment / disappointment level is easily mitigated . However when groups of peope "conspire" to control the resources and keep them "away from the peasants", that's when resentment builds because peeps feel that no matter what they do (limiting this to things they actually have control over and within their approach to game), they just don't have a shot.

Here's an example (real life corollary in parenthesis ): Let's say I hold the position of Assistant Chief Kitin Hunter in Pyr (Deputy Commissioner of Highways for Anytown USA). The Chief Kitin Hunter (Commissioner) is retiring and I am up for the job. I am interviewed by the Town Council and the say that I have the best record of anyone who has ever served in the department.....however, I can't have the job because I am not Kami / Fyros (Republican Party / Caucasian). Am I justified in being resentful ?

So I won't say GF is wrong for not recognizing that the "humans" who play they game are subject to the dictates of "human nature" but I will say:

1. This stuff was not here before OP / Cats and Atys was a more congenial place.

2. If they provided an "alternate" route to get the same goodies, any resentment would vanish.

3. If there is to be "alliances", the concept only works when there is a balance or close to it. The moment once side gains a clear advantage, it inevitably snowballs into a bigger and bigger advantage. This is the findamental flaw in the game design which relies on the advantaged side either getting bored with winning or tired of the losing side whining to the extent they stop playing the game.

jared96 wrote:I don't know the creator's intent, but I took the word "precious" as admiration of a wonderful thing not contempt. I must be too old .

Now that would depend on whether you consider the wording "precious" in that context to be one of the following:

1)Sarcastic
2)Leading or misleading
3)Actualy meant in one of the semantical contexts that the cats are very valuable.

If you bothered to read the reply that Meloner gave me too that - you will see she says to ignore the *sarcasm* - which would lead one to believe that the word "precious" was used in a sarcastic context.

I dont think you are too old my friend - just think you need to read the posts before and after

I am no getting on to your following post to reply - I found it interesting and would like to comment

jared96 wrote:I think whether or not it's GF's fault depends on how you approach the problem. One can eitehr ignore human nature or plan for it. The concept of "attractive nuisance" is one well recognized is most civilized countries. OP and cats definitely fit the definition. For example, if an adult leaves a loaded gun in a nightstand drawer or a refrigerator out at the curb and a kid dies as a result, is it the adult's fault ? One could argue that the kid had no business looking in grandpa's nightstand or playing with the neighbor's trash but most would say "yes, the adult should have recognized teh threat".

It's not just kids, construction sites are fenced to keep curious adults out of harm's way. Landowners also have a "duty of care" where there is a reasonable expectation of negative impact. A landowner allowing or simply not taking active steps to stop hunters from using his property is one example.

There will always be resentment when there are "Have's and "Have nots". Using freudian terms, our ego may control our baser desires and have peeps acting all polite and stuff but the id is still screaming "Hey, I want my share". When you are a "have", the most common response is "what is everyone all upset about ?" ..... the historical "let em eat cake" argument. When one is on the other side, te proverbial "shoe being on the other foot". it's amzing how fast attitudes change.

So when people have a chance of getting "their share" whether through hard work or fair competition the resentment / disappointment level is easily mitigated . However when groups of peope "conspire" to control the resources and keep them "away from the peasants", that's when resentment builds because peeps feel that no matter what they do (limiting this to things they actually have control over and within their approach to game), they just don't have a shot.

Here's an example (real life corollary in parenthesis ): Let's say I hold the position of Assistant Chief Kitin Hunter in Pyr (Deputy Commissioner of Highways for Anytown USA). The Chief Kitin Hunter (Commissioner) is retiring and I am up for the job. I am interviewed by the Town Council and the say that I have the best record of anyone who has ever served in the department.....however, I can't have the job because I am not Kami / Fyros (Republican Party / Caucasian). Am I justified in being resentful ?

So I won't say GF is wrong for not recognizing that the "humans" who play they game are subject to the dictates of "human nature" but I will say:

1. This stuff was not here before OP / Cats and Atys was a more congenial place.

2. If they provided an "alternate" route to get the same goodies, any resentment would vanish.

3. If there is to be "alliances", the concept only works when there is a balance or close to it. The moment once side gains a clear advantage, it inevitably snowballs into a bigger and bigger advantage. This is the findamental flaw in the game design which relies on the advantaged side either getting bored with winning or tired of the losing side whining to the extent they stop playing the game.

Before I start I want to say nice post - well thought out and colourful use of examples.

Now I was going to reply with a long and hearty post. But have decided not to. What I want to say I will put down in some very simple terms.

Your first two paragraphs represent what reality is. This is fact - not fiction and you are quite right. People need protecting from other people, from themselves, their environment and circumstances. I could not agree more with you.

I also agree - and we dont have to go into Freudian theories on ego ( it is a basic enough concept that most can understand ) - that many people will always want something that someone else has - whether it be tangible or untangible.

Your next point I also agree with - people will want their share and of course once they get it - we all know that they want more.

Upto all those points I agree with you.

But where I think you have gone wrong is from where you say "So I won't say GF is wrong for not recognizing that the "humans" who play they game are subject to the dictates of "human nature".

I would be inclined to think that GF was relying on human nature with the implementation of OPs to make Atys a much more enjoyable experience with many new things to do - like PvP and prizes. They thought it would ATTRACT humans and convert them to Homins. It blew up in their faces - they made a very bad call and all the crap has hit the fan. It was a huge mistake that was probably made by experienced people trying to imitate other online mmporg concepts.

You then outline 3 points.

1) I agree with you from what I have heard from friends and read on forums.

2) I dont think resentment would vanish at all - we are talking about human nature - many people thrive on the downfall of others - and greed and anger are emotions that are harrd to repress for many of us. If the Alliances were not brought about by cats and OP´s then it could well have been enhanced with other future projects. Still the same thing - many people enjoy flame wars and the chance to jump on others. Resentment go?? I dont think so. Would it have ever arisen? I think so - but maybe not so swiftly and maybe in a different circumstance.

3)Alliances do not only work if balanced -that is utter rubbish. Apply it to the real world (you like applying RL to a game so lets try it now) - there are many alliances in our real World - and non of it is balanced. The norm is that alliances form with other alliancees but keep their own seperate identities (and I dont mean some guilds making an alliance -I mean alliances helping other alliances). You think World powers are balanced? lol. I realy hope you do not. But there are many other forms of alliances - economical/political/social etc etc etc. Power with alliances shift - and will always do so. One day there can be an "overall alliance" applied to something - but there will always be a rebellion with those who are not content - so power will shift once again etc etc etc.

Putting aside RL and Game Life - well Ryzom has two alliances and a neutral. Power shifts and swings and we now see kami are on the up and looking more daunting to the karavans with more frequent attacks etc. To a certain point you are right that with just two alliances - it is hard to keep things from "breaking" without balance.

If you have read most of my posts on this forum and made some kind of presumption - you should presume (from the way I read my posts back to me), that I clearly think three things :A)Cats are not evil B)GF needs to do something (which kinda goes towards your argument) C)We as a community need to make good appropriate actions and choices.

If game flaws and mechanics break then there are TWO reasons for that - one is OUR fault and the other is GF.

The part of my post you have quoted does make it look like I do not think GF is accountable for what has occured. However - that part of my post was realy mainly aimed at making people see that we are not helping each other. i should have rephrased it and left GF out of it - for I do agree that they should be doing something. I also think that if they did something productive, that may take away some of the excitement of OP´s - and thus taking away some of the resentment.

But to get anywhere - the community would need to stick together and use RL tactics to make GF listen. That can be in many different ways - llike I said appointing spokesmen/women and a good thread of ideas to base their arguments on. Then a productive and constructive measure of procedures that will eventualy lead to GF listening to their client base.

How this will be achieved -I have no idea. But as part of the community here - I will be willing to help in any way possible and take the time to give my opinion and advice.