Combat problems

[ozric]

Due to the fact that cons seem to be relative to a mob within its own class the documentation ingame is totally incorrect as it states it is the mobs LEVEL.

Mob "level" is the quality level of the mats that are dropped by a mob, which is an indirect representation of the mobs fight level. The table that Lazarus produced is how it is currently ingame. But, there is no such thing as a "fight" level 0 mob. Even if you start with, say, no magic whatsoever, you will be lvl 1 in magic. So, a level 0 mob would mean that the mob doesnt drop mats but only dapper, and in this case its relative fight level cannot be determined. As for the difference between mobs of a similar con level, see ahremarks post.

[ahremark]

I am sorry but as far as I can see that answer just doesnt wash. I can understand differences between mob types and some being more difficult than others but we are talking a case here of a mob supposedly being level 0 according to the documentation.

I have never, ever seen a black level con in the game. Black is the colour the level indicator in my target window has when i have nothing targetted.
Nothing = 0
Could it be that you've been looking on the agression indicator next to the level indicator in the target window? That one is used to determine how friendly/hostile the target is, you sometimes find the colour black there but it's not related to level or difficulty.

I'd look on the target indicator in the main window instead (The one you see blinking around the Torbak, Yubo or whatever you're fighting), it's much less confusing.

[tonycow]

Mob "level" is the quality level of the mats that are dropped by a mob, which is an indirect representation of the mobs fight level. The table that Lazarus produced is how it is currently ingame. But, there is no such thing as a "fight" level 0 mob. Even if you start with, say, no magic whatsoever, you will be lvl 1 in magic. So, a level 0 mob would mean that the mob doesnt drop mats but only dapper, and in this case its relative fight level cannot be determined. As for the difference between mobs of a similar con level, see ahremarks post.

Note that in ALL previous mmorpgs con (also note that con means to consider a mob or to determine its toughness in these cases) is used as an indication of how hard a fight is likely to be and by the explanation in the manual it should also be so in this game, here is how the manual explains it:

A color code provides information on the adversary's strength. The color code from weak to strong is: black, green, blue, yellow, orange, red, purple. A pale color indicates that a creature is weaker than the average.

There is no mention of the quality of mat drops in the manual based on con, though we obviously know that fighting harder mobs usually means better and higher quality mats.

From the manual description the con is used to determine the difficulty of a fight as it should be and according to the help in game it is a determination of the actual level of the mob (what the basis for this level is however is not explained) - try clicking help on the con box and reading the ingame help.

From all the information taken above a black mob SHOULD be an easy kill for a character with 35 in fight and decent equipment (its level rating ingame is listed as 0).

However as I have tried to point out several times in this thread the current con system is pretty meaningless and it is possible for me to kill some light blue mobs yet die easily to some pale green or even the odd BLACK mob.

[tonycow]

Just to add I have targetted the odd NPC bandit and got a con level showing as black - bug perhaps or just the fact cons arent always generated correctly for the humanoid NPC types ?

Even though what I have said still holds true for pale green mobs being overly difficult at times.

[ozric]

There are a few people here so far who have posted that they dont think you should be able to run - some may think this dumbs down the game.

As far as i can see it is a fundamental mechanic in every mmorpg released to date and it certainly hasn't stopped players getting killed for a multitude of reasons - I find it tends to encourage more experimentation when fighting mobs rather than just going for the easy kills all the time. Players own actions should be what gets them killed not a mechanism missing from the game.

Maybe you think I am wrong with this statement, but please feel free to name any mmorpg so far where this isnt an option - I think you will find they all have it.

Just because you havent discovered the almost fail-safe mechanism for escape from combat, certainly doesnt mean that it is "missing from the game".
The trouble with people who compare game X to game Y to game Z is that they expect things to happen in the same "standard" way, rather than trying to work out the subtleties of each.

[ozric]

Note that in ALL previous mmorpgs ...

*sigh*

From the manual description the con is used to determine the difficulty of a fight as it should be and according to the help in game it is a determination of the actual level of the mob (what the basis for this level is however is not explained) - try clicking help on the con box and reading the ingame help.

Yes agreed, where did i say any different ? And again, i refer you to ahremarks post.

[tonycow]

Just because you havent discovered the almost fail-safe mechanism for escape from combat, certainly doesnt mean that it is "missing from the game".
The trouble with people who compare game X to game Y to game Z is that they expect things to happen in the same "standard" way, rather than trying to work out the subtleties of each.

Maybe I havent found a way yet that is hidden in this game of escaping in some circumstances but even using magic to boost my running speed the mobs usually catch up again a short while afterwards. If I dont make it to a guard i die, plain and simple (there is no water to jump into where I hunt and tbh why not have mobs follow you in, surely some can swim ? I also find that using water as a safe spot would be a lame use of AI).

As I have already said in just about every other game released there is a way to escape (not 100% and thats how it should be - you should never be able to escape EVERY situation) and these things are usually available from the start and even listed in the games manuals.

When a player starts out in Ryzom an add that cant be killed after your primary mob means certain death - there is no way to run off or even to make the attempt - if I succeed or not isnt what matters its the CHANCE to succeed to flee that does. With the current mechanic and after many failed attempts there is literally no point even trying to escape.

If you watch a lion chasing its prey on the nature channels and it fails to catch its prey what does it do - it gives up and stalks another target so please dont use the fact that mobs should never give up a chase as an excuse, again this is another simple mechanic present in ALL over similar games that after a certain time chasing a mob will give up but in Rzyom i can run one from one town to another if I can survive.

[tonycow]

*sigh*


Yes agreed, where did i say any different ? And again, i refer you to ahremarks post.

Yes i use previous mmorpgs as an example - why because these are tried and tested game mechanics that most players like and are used to - even in the NA forums some players complain about the lack of fleeing tactics and some make better arguments for them than I do.

Ryzom has many elements taken from other mmorpgs - try finding many games in this day and age that dont take ideas from others, it seems to me though that some basic and very good working principles should also have carried over.

[ozric]

Maybe I havent found a way yet..

...but it doesnt mean that there arent any.
Also, a mob will give up the chase if you are far enough away from it.

[tonycow]

...but it doesnt mean that there arent any.
Also, a mob will give up the chase if you are far enough away from it.

I have to admit seeing this happen on one occasion but after the number of times I have now died whilst trying to escape I still feel that escape is impossible in almost all cases - it seemed to be a fluke.

Maybe the best fix would be to make the speed up stanzas avalable far more often and last for at least 3x as long and reduce the distance over which mobs will give chase ?

This would mean that the option to flee wouldn't save your ass every time but waiting for the speed up stanza to be available before a fight would make it more possible.

It is just so rare right now to actually make it out of a bad situation that you may as well die - however if it is made more possible to escape maybe the death penalties should also be balanced to be a bit tougher. Its the fact that the options not there that makes it so frustrating not the actual penalties involved as they are easily dealt with.

Then again if the speed up is changed why not just put the sprint option in like other mmorpgs and be done with it ?

I would like to see Ryzom succeed in the current mmorpg climate but tbh if these frustrations are left in - and btw I have talked to plenty of folks ingame who also find the current setup to be a major annoyance - then Ryzom will have problems getting and keeping a decent playerbase, which it needs to do in the shortterm to survive.