Ryzom

In a game I used to play, we had Realm vs Realm in that each realm (there were three realms), had keeps that could be attacked by members of opposing realms. If I remember correctly, in order to claim a keep, a guild had to have enough guild realm points, and if they wanted to stand a good chance of keeping it for long, they had to upgrade the keep with additional realm points, as well as repair the doors and keep walls. Otherwise, it was just manned by NPC guards owned by the realm. Also, a guild's ownership of a keep would last only as long as they had the collective guild realm points to keep it.

There were rewards for one realm owning more keeps than the others (sole access to a specific dungeon, for example), and I noticed that at times one realm would own more keeps, where at other times another would, and sometimes the number of keeps was even.

It seems to me that the devs might want to implement something like this; perhaps characters whose faction is equal to that of the OP's owners could also gather mats there, just not at the same quantity. Also, I think that having OP ownership linked to some sort of cost would help to make the OPs open for all.

Of course, having FvF battles over an OP seems to be the way of things, from what I'm reading on the forums, and I have no easy answer for that. In that other game, oftentimes that's what wound up happening when a keep fell under attack; a huge attacking force would attack, and another force would come to force the attackers to fight them instead of attacking the keep. Also, keep in mind, the NPC keep guards were also there, and to actually win the keep, a force had to take out the keep captain, a very tough character.

In such a case, FvF would be the way to go, and once the OP is won, whichever guild(s) have enough members present should be able to stake a claim, and deciding who exercised the claim would have to be solved diplomatically.

One other thing; in that other game, a guild could only own one keep at a time. Perhaps such a limitation would be worth looking into here, who knows. I just know it seemed to work well in that other game. Personally, the emphasis on Realm vs Realm was one of the things that caused me to leave that game; once you reached the highest level, there was pretty much nothing else to do. I am not a huge fan of conflict between players, myself, and I hope to be able to be neutral when I get back in game.

Thanks, and God Bless.

I also am deeply saddened by the posts of Nonde/Zysha (don't believe we've met) and other long-term players. I have seen how this situatioon has affected many of the players I've met since starting playing (about 3 months ago), and mostly it seems to haave made a lot of ppl very angry.

Obviously all this happened before I started playing and I have no knowledge of a world without cats. I've been solo-ing and self-crafting my newest alt for around a month before joining a guild and therefore had no access to cats exept when offered them by some kind passer-by/aquaintance/friend - you all know who you are and I thank you. I had no idea they (cats) were so closely held until I read this thread. This (below) seems to be the most obvious and least disruptive solution.

aardnebb wrote:Erm, I've been to every event I could make since I have joined, which is a majority of them since the midpoint of Ep 2. At the moment the only tangible "rewards" for events organised by the Dev Team was that for Ep 2. Another PvPfest.

So perhaps Devs could give out "good roleplaying" crystals and mats for people who stay in-character and make RP events more enjoyable?

And for the PvE hunt loving crowd, new powerful enemies that hold crystals and mats to be looted. Not easy ones, but certainly present.

For those that love digging/crafting, then perhaps treat crystals like Excellent mats and OP mats like Supremes, rare and hard to find or track, but worth looking for.

Reward PvP if you must (I do understand the need for _something_ to fight over), but dont make all other playstyles secondary.

Being self-crafted and solo, I would've been delighted to have "struck cats" (or similar item) while exploring the lesser known shores of Dyron lake or trekking myself bravely (Harv would call me insane at this point) up into Underspring to play with critters I can't even hit, let alone kill! What reward that would have been for such intrepidness!

As for the PvP, well, it's a laugh I think. makes the world seem a little more "real", but honestly I think it has little bearing on the actual problem, as Nonde suggests - it is the rewards that are the issue. It hasn't detrracted from my enjoyment of the game, but then, I wasn'e playing before it (or cats) were introduced. Call me a noob if you wish.

However in my 3 months playing, I have met at least 3 ppl - all long time players wwho have quit, and thaht can't be good. Surely Aardnebb's solution is a gift? Not just a solution to the existing problem, but an valuable addition to the game!

iphdrunk wrote:A very nice, detailed and insightful post

Don't quit yet Zysh.. If I didn't, you must stay who am I going to chat and rant to?

ehr ditto

I really think "PvE Outposts" are a bad idea... The reason PvP Outposts work is because you're fighting against other players. You have no way to know what they'll do or when they'll do it.

If you make a PvE Outpost, you're essentially making a raid encounter (good). However, people will learn the straegies to defeat it and after a while it'll no longer be a challenge. Whoever knows the strat can take it over for maximum time. NPCs will never be able to win it back from players, and saying that players only control the outpost for a certain amount of time makes no sense RP. If you can defeat the NPCs every time they attack, how can you justify them suddenly winning and taking it back after X days? Why would you give up the outpost willingly? So you'd have one guild that owns a PvE outpost forever.

More content is a good thing, making PvE outposts isn't the answer though.

Now, that being said, it WOULD be cool if you had NPC controlled outposts, and you had to attack them en mass like a normal PvP outpost... However, once you defeated all the NPCs you didn't gain control of the outpost, instead you simply raided it for whatever might be inside. (a bunch of chests with XP crystals, rare mats, crafting plans, etc. The same stuff you get from PvP outposts, but just in a one time shot.)

After you defeat and raid the outposts for the loot, it stands there empty while the tribes repopulate it, this could take a number of real life days to do so (to prevent farming)

Now what you have is a raid encounter of the same spirit as every other game. You have your nice loot, your real life timer to prevent farming, the requirement of a number of people, AND, its PvE. Which is what a lot of people want.

PvP and PvE can get the same items now, the only difference is that PvP gets them as a steady stream, PvE has to go tackle a bunch of outposts to get them. And if another guild beats you to the outpost... you just find a ruined empty landscape.

Putting a limit on how many outposts a guild can own (pvp or any pve system) is asking for trouble. Competion is a good thing when people don't act immature about it. For immature people... I hear Klients has GMs on 24/7

cyrish wrote:PvP and PvE can get the same items now, the only difference is that PvP gets them as a steady stream, PvE has to go tackle a bunch of outposts to get them. And if another guild beats you to the outpost... you just find a ruined empty landscape.

unfortunately, PvP ppl can raid PvE outposts just as easyly as PvE ppl can. PvE ppl cant however "raid" PvP outpost (well, they could, but you know what i mean).

also, it would be kind of silly to hope that PvP ppl would miss fun/boring PvE raid encounter just to give PvE ppl a chance

cyrish wrote:I hear Klients has GMs on 24/7

so does the game

cyrish wrote: More content is a good thing, making PvE outposts isn't the answer though.

I think one of the original ideas of the PvE outposts was to obtain outposts without fighting at all. Something like doing missions for the owner, or digging mats to build an outpost or such things. So a totally different concept of taking control of an outpost. So that would be new content in my opinion.

Making it only fight against Marauders would make it just less challenging than the PvP version.

thlau wrote:I think one of the original ideas of the PvE outposts was to obtain outposts without fighting at all. Something like doing missions for the owner, or digging mats to build an outpost or such things. So a totally different concept of taking control of an outpost. So that would be new content in my opinion.

I admit I've thought about "PvE outposts" a few times, and usually came up with similar mission/dig/craft based ideas for taking it, but the problem always remains of how to lose it? The only idea I could come up with was to make it so that you had to constantly "take" the outpost, but then it is still far easier than a PvP OP (digging mats over and over is only a problem if you have to do insane amounts in a very short time, even then this can be easily overcome - fighting off attackers just needs a "tactic" to make it relatively easy - doing missions for some group to keep the OP makes little sense, how would they take the OP from you if you fail?)

farming to take over an outpost is certainly less challenging than PvPing for one. Heck, you can just bot and get everything you need. Same with missions really - once someone figures out what to do, its just a monotomous series of repetitions. No real challenge at all. Anything non-PvP has the same problem. Once you figure it out its easy to repeat as needed, there's no change or variation - that's one of the appears about player vs player conflict, you can never be certain what other players will do, so its always a new challenge.

And like so many people have said, the biggest problem with "taking" a PvE outpost would be how do you lose it. Hence why I suggested you don't take it. You attack it, get the goods, then move on. Now maybe as part of that attack you have to gather supplies for some NPC mercenaries.. you have to go dig and craft for a bit, then you attack. Maybe you need to earn the NPC's trust as well, so you have to do a couple missions.

The point is that you can not realisticly "hold" a PvE outpost. It isn't fair to other players because they have no chance to really take it back. It also makes no sense story wise or logic wise for the owners to simply give it up after a certain period of time. The only viable solution to this idea of PvE outposts in my opinion is to make them an involved 'encouter' - if you win the encouter you get a set amount of rewards and the encouter has to reset over time, letting someone else have a chance if they get there before you the next time.

And your absolutly right. PvP players would be able to take part in this PvE content. Why shouldn't they? Just because you don't want to PvP doesn't mean you can't partake of the existing outpost content. You simply choose not to. Why should PvPers be restricted on what they can do and treated as lesser players?

sprite wrote:I admit I've thought about "PvE outposts" a few times, and usually came up with similar mission/dig/craft based ideas for taking it, but the problem always remains of how to lose it? The only idea I could come up with was to make it so that you had to constantly "take" the outpost, but then it is still far easier than a PvP OP (digging mats over and over is only a problem if you have to do insane amounts in a very short time, even then this can be easily overcome - fighting off attackers just needs a "tactic" to make it relatively easy - doing missions for some group to keep the OP makes little sense, how would they take the OP from you if you fail?)

by having winning the outpost dependant om something like tribal fame.. (but specific for the outpost ), it can be earned by the full spectrum of missions currently available, digging, crafting, exploring, hunting.. whichever guild meets the threshold gets to own the OP - with maybe a fight against marauders just to mark the occasion , and then , their OP fame BLEEDS.
the owning guild can be constantly doing missions, to maintain the required level for ownership, but if it drops below say 50%, they flat out lose the OP, and any other guild which has the required level of fame gets the OP - since they werent in ownership, their fame wasnt decreasing, so it wouldnt be hard to be in position to pick up a lapsed OP. if many guilds are eligible, highest fame wins. The previous owners will be at 50% of required ownership fame, so will have to put an effort in to be able to challenge again. As fame for OPs you dont own isnt subject to deterioration, a guild can position itself for several outposts.