Server downtime has give me lots of time to think about players who say in region chat "Dead by city gates. Please rez me!" (or words to that effect). The schoolteacherish voice in me says to them (inaudibly so far, luckily) "A free rez means no death penalty, and no death penalty means you will hold your life cheap. Learn to value your life and stay alive!"
But I have also been wondering what this game might be like if there were no death penalty at all. So far, I don't see any massive negatives to the idea, and I am interested if anyone else can think of a *valid* reason for keeping the DP.
1. Currently, there is no DP after either an in-group or a drive-by rez. I don't have anyway of guessing what proportion of total deaths this is, but i suspect it's a large percentage.
2. No DP would be a bigger benefit to solo players than to group players. This might be a good way of correcting some of the bias against soloing.
3. No DP might be a bigger benefit to lousy or slapdash players than to expert or careful players. This might be a bit unfair to players who try hard.
4. Overall, everyone would level faster. Perhaps there would have to be an overall slight nerfing of XP rates, so that elapsed time to level remained more or less the same.
5. There would still be a penalty associated with dying, even if there were no actual DP. As now, you would get no XP from a creature's death if you died in its killing. As now, you would have to respawn somewhere, and spend time getting back to where you were. So dying would waste your time, and prevent you from progressing.
6. When I imagine a game without DP, I imagine a game pretty much like the game as it is now, but just more enjoyable to play. This doesn't seem like such a bad thing.
Anyone interested in weighing in on this subject?
Adayl
Mortophobic of Matis
How bad can (should) death be?
Re: How bad can (should) death be?
I have the opposite point of view. I would even be in favor of permanent death of chars under certain circumstances. Having death be meaningless causes the following negative consequences, IMO:qmodal wrote:Server downtime has give me lots of time to think about players who say in region chat "Dead by city gates. Please rez me!" (or words to that effect). The schoolteacherish voice in me says to them (inaudibly so far, luckily) "A free rez means no death penalty, and no death penalty means you will hold your life cheap. Learn to value your life and stay alive!"
But I have also been wondering what this game might be like if there were no death penalty at all. So far, I don't see any massive negatives to the idea, and I am interested if anyone else can think of a *valid* reason for keeping the DP.
1. Currently, there is no DP after either an in-group or a drive-by rez. I don't have anyway of guessing what proportion of total deaths this is, but i suspect it's a large percentage.
2. No DP would be a bigger benefit to solo players than to group players. This might be a good way of correcting some of the bias against soloing.
3. No DP might be a bigger benefit to lousy or slapdash players than to expert or careful players. This might be a bit unfair to players who try hard.
4. Overall, everyone would level faster. Perhaps there would have to be an overall slight nerfing of XP rates, so that elapsed time to level remained more or less the same.
5. There would still be a penalty associated with dying, even if there were no actual DP. As now, you would get no XP from a creature's death if you died in its killing. As now, you would have to respawn somewhere, and spend time getting back to where you were. So dying would waste your time, and prevent you from progressing.
6. When I imagine a game without DP, I imagine a game pretty much like the game as it is now, but just more enjoyable to play. This doesn't seem like such a bad thing.
Anyone interested in weighing in on this subject?
Adayl
Mortophobic of Matis
*Total loss of immersion. This is supposed to be an alternate world, not heaven.
*No excitement or suspense. What is the thrill of just barely killing that last opponent if it wouldn't matter if you died?
*No incentive for careful playing to avoid dying. IMO, this is already a problem. The idea of "maxing out" DP is something I already don't like, since it transforms the game as you describe.
*No sense of accomplishment when successfully completing something dangerous. After all, if you just keep dying and coming back to life without penalty, endlessly trying different approaches until you find one which works, where is the satisfaction in that? Makes me think of cheating.
On the other hand, getting resurrected and having no penalty is not unreasonable, especially since you have only 2 minutes to do so. Part of the mythology of many RPG gameworlds has to do with magic, including resurrection, so that doesn't conflict with the premises behind the game. Since it's in keeping with the logic of this alternate place, it doesn't ruin the immersion factor.
Doctor Z.
Re: How bad can (should) death be?
Hmmmm...(Wheels grinding inside head with audible squeeks...steam comes pouring out of ears...light bulb goes on over head...) Yup, I am most definitely ambivilant about this one. On the one hand, knowing there is a DP does give combat more of a rush, makes staying alive and winning or pulling off a successful escape feel more like I actually accomplished something. With no DP I probably wouldn't even try the (usually doomed anyway) attempt to hit melee protection, speed up, and run screaming for the nearest guards when that HP bar is almost gone and the self heal action hasn't come back on yet. And there is a sort of rush in watching the spawn timer count down and wondering if the homin who answered the call for help will make it in time. Might take some of the excitement out of it all. But I am not high level yet, and digging off my DP is quick, painless, and usually gives me something to grind some craft xp with. Sometimes I even find foraging sort of relaxing after the flatliner rush. On the other hand, I suppose as the DP goes up the downtime would get more annoying, and I certainly prefer to get xp when I do something that normally gives me xp. Personally, I like anything that speeds up leveling. But on the gripping hand, it would seem the devs feel a need to slow down leveling and make travel between civilizations more difficult, presumably to preserve their planned story line that matters. Removing the DP would appear to go contrary to this and all the changes we have seen so far. Somehow I doubt DP will be removed except under the PvP parameters they have put forth.
Interesting food for thought tho. And a starving brain is indeed an awful thing.
Interesting food for thought tho. And a starving brain is indeed an awful thing.
Last edited by aldrikoy on Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: How bad can (should) death be?
Lol, Dr Z. Thought I was going to be first here. Your post was there as I posted mine, and lo and behold, we put forth nearly identical arguements in the pro-DP column, tho I am much more wishy washy than you. Such synchronicity. 
Last edited by aldrikoy on Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: How bad can (should) death be?
How BAD can death be...FOUR hour corpse recovery(AKA rebreaking into the Plane of Fear NAKED *violent shuddering*) in the Plane of Fear in EQ, Losing EVERYTHING you owned and worked about four months for in Lineage two, in two trips out of town.
It taking WEEKS to regain a level, and a SPELL you need in EQ, due to ONE raid where you didn't get your rez in time.
Death can be BAD OH so bad...in other games.
Do we NEED a DP? well if we didn't have them...what would be the down side to travel... other than the time it takes to load?
Death DOES need to be something more than a MILD incovienence, there should be SOME ouch without the OH MY GOD NO...I Died...time to quit/reroll/hit ebay for a new account.
People did actually LEAVE L2 over a dead loss of over 2 to 10 MILLION in game cash valued items (cash in L2 was NOT that easy to get, 2million would account for about three MONTHS game cash for many players, more than that for my play style).
I am pro DP, just not the way OTHER games do it.
The thing about grouping is...even if you DO get a DP, xp rolls in fast enough that the DP is gone in a few pulls, less than an hour...unless you maxed it out before joining the group.
It taking WEEKS to regain a level, and a SPELL you need in EQ, due to ONE raid where you didn't get your rez in time.
Death can be BAD OH so bad...in other games.
Do we NEED a DP? well if we didn't have them...what would be the down side to travel... other than the time it takes to load?
Death DOES need to be something more than a MILD incovienence, there should be SOME ouch without the OH MY GOD NO...I Died...time to quit/reroll/hit ebay for a new account.
People did actually LEAVE L2 over a dead loss of over 2 to 10 MILLION in game cash valued items (cash in L2 was NOT that easy to get, 2million would account for about three MONTHS game cash for many players, more than that for my play style).
I am pro DP, just not the way OTHER games do it.
The thing about grouping is...even if you DO get a DP, xp rolls in fast enough that the DP is gone in a few pulls, less than an hour...unless you maxed it out before joining the group.
Re: How bad can (should) death be?
No DP means an absolutely FREE teleport to anywhere you have a spawn point.
Re: How bad can (should) death be?
They turn it off for events. So I say turn it off everywhere period. NO MORE DP.
Re: How bad can (should) death be?
Imo, the dp should be worse, the more that you fear death the better the game experience. There should also be dp in all circumstances, especialy events.
Re: How bad can (should) death be?
Heh, it probably doesn't get said often in these forums, but thx guys for disagreeing with me. It's not too difficult to argue in favor of no DP, but arguing against is harder than it seems.
Dr Z, I'd be interested to see you develop your objections a bit more. I don't want to agree with you or disagree with you yet on whether you might be right, but I want to give you a series of hypothetical yes-but's:
>>*Total loss of immersion.
Well, the game would be different, but even if it is perceived as "heaven-like" how does that prevent immersion? Paradise might be quite immersing.
>>*No excitement or suspense. What is the thrill of just barely killing that last opponent if it wouldn't matter if you died?
In an exciting contest, wouldn't survival be thrilling because you *survived* and not because you avoided DP? Wouldn't dying be a disappointment because you failed to stay alive, not because you gained DP?
>>*No incentive for careful playing to avoid dying.
This is the really difficult one, because it involves a change of mindset amongst careful players. If you care about careful playing (and I do too), what truly goes wrong if some other players don't care? How does it impact you? Sure, perhaps some idiot gets a break, so to speak, but does it really affect my gameplay, unless I feel like competing against the idiots?
>>*No sense of accomplishment when successfully completing something dangerous. After all, if you just keep dying and coming back to life without penalty, endlessly trying different approaches until you find one which works, where is the satisfaction in that?
Similar to the above, isn't the satisfaction in survival, not in avoiding DP? Also, if you die once, or twice, or 5 times or 10 times trying a certain mob, then continuing to try is probably going to produce the same result: death. Even with DP, when faced with a new class of mob, you essentially have to try different approaches until you find one that works. It's just that careful players plan a bit (or a lot) harder.
Lyrah68, I agree that DP (or its equivalent) is much nastier and much more discouraging in other MMOs, usually. But in a reverse-psychology sort of way that's what makes me wonder if it is out of place in this game -- Ryzom's kinder, gentler DP is too gentle to make the game as horrendous as the others, but still intrusive enough to reduce gameplay enjoyment. Why not have just the enjoyment?
Swayzo, thanks for reminding me about no DP for events. I find it curious that perhaps people (especially at the lower levels) are perceived as unlikely to participate if there is DP. This says something about the effects of DP on player enthusiasm, I think.
Dr Z, I'd be interested to see you develop your objections a bit more. I don't want to agree with you or disagree with you yet on whether you might be right, but I want to give you a series of hypothetical yes-but's:
>>*Total loss of immersion.
Well, the game would be different, but even if it is perceived as "heaven-like" how does that prevent immersion? Paradise might be quite immersing.
>>*No excitement or suspense. What is the thrill of just barely killing that last opponent if it wouldn't matter if you died?
In an exciting contest, wouldn't survival be thrilling because you *survived* and not because you avoided DP? Wouldn't dying be a disappointment because you failed to stay alive, not because you gained DP?
>>*No incentive for careful playing to avoid dying.
This is the really difficult one, because it involves a change of mindset amongst careful players. If you care about careful playing (and I do too), what truly goes wrong if some other players don't care? How does it impact you? Sure, perhaps some idiot gets a break, so to speak, but does it really affect my gameplay, unless I feel like competing against the idiots?
>>*No sense of accomplishment when successfully completing something dangerous. After all, if you just keep dying and coming back to life without penalty, endlessly trying different approaches until you find one which works, where is the satisfaction in that?
Similar to the above, isn't the satisfaction in survival, not in avoiding DP? Also, if you die once, or twice, or 5 times or 10 times trying a certain mob, then continuing to try is probably going to produce the same result: death. Even with DP, when faced with a new class of mob, you essentially have to try different approaches until you find one that works. It's just that careful players plan a bit (or a lot) harder.
Lyrah68, I agree that DP (or its equivalent) is much nastier and much more discouraging in other MMOs, usually. But in a reverse-psychology sort of way that's what makes me wonder if it is out of place in this game -- Ryzom's kinder, gentler DP is too gentle to make the game as horrendous as the others, but still intrusive enough to reduce gameplay enjoyment. Why not have just the enjoyment?
Swayzo, thanks for reminding me about no DP for events. I find it curious that perhaps people (especially at the lower levels) are perceived as unlikely to participate if there is DP. This says something about the effects of DP on player enthusiasm, I think.
Re: How bad can (should) death be?
I agree with this, as noted above.hekkus wrote:Imo, the dp should be worse, the more that you fear death the better the game experience. There should also be dp in all circumstances, especialy events.
Doctor Z.