pvp ideas, issues, concerns, questions (Merged Thread)

[zzeii]

What does that, or anything about griefing have to do with Atys' Environment? You could always make a thread on Rules concerning PvP. This isn't it.

You could consider griefing an ecological disaster, sorta like Exxon-Valdez oil spill. griefing style Pvp + Mmo = Drunk Captain + a ship full of oil. A big mess either way.

[zzeii]

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Conclusion:
Just by looking around I think that the game is suited for a PvP environment as it stands. Yes I do want PvP, but even if I didn't, I couldn't deny that the structure of Atys calls for a majority of content to come from the players themselves. And this by doing the only tools they've given us to work with. Digging, Killing, and Fashion shows.

I do agree that the game is designed to have player devised content. I can see how it is devised to support a pvp style environment. And in the future, working it in based on the outposts would be a practical way to impliment it. But adding in of pvp without outposts to fight over in areas is kinda like buttering your bread before putting it in the toaster. I.e. a mess.

Possibly making areas in a certain radius of outposts pvp to start, then having 'events' so guilds could claim outposts while fighting off rival guilds to take possession of them. And then as the story further unfolds increasing the area of pvp around them with time would be a practical way to gradually bring pvp in.

This would give those harvesters in guilds, a place to fall back into if they are harassed by 'outlaws' or rival guilds. And add to the dynamic of guild vs guild or guild vs fringe players. I'd think the idea of outposts being able to have npc guards that would defend guildmembers would be a good call as well. Since tribes generally did have the benefit of shelter in their villages.

As for challenges for higher levels right now? I know of a number of 'boss mobs' in a number of zones that still remain untouched. There are 2 area's that I know of that no one has yet to dared to enter. Underwood Woe in the Elusive Forest, and Demon's Lap in Forbidden Depths. I do believe that both of these are 'dungeons' that no one has yet set foot in. Mob mats may not seem that big right now, but I have a feeling the best gear will require both harvested and quartered mats. Especially if you want a 100/100 amp, or max speed and damage weapon, or max protection/parry mod armor, then you'll have to have to take down these boss mobs. Examples - Yelkoo in Elusive Forest (yelk mushroom has the best heal power boost), Mekoo in Forbidden Depths, Hornkan in Lagoon of Loria, Shakan in Enchanted Isles, Kipeekoo in Abyss of Ichor(kipee's shells have high protection on them I believe) just to name a few. Was in a full group taking on Zerkan one night...did not have the dps to kill it, 250khp and a regen so high we barely budged it's life. For all the lack of content, there's still a ton of mobs left on my 'to kill' list, still a ton of nooks and crannies to explore. And much fame to be earned.

[josephm]

True Zzeii but still, griefers deal with rules not yet implemented. As far as the environment stand, the game is built for PvP.

As for outpot PvP radius, there are so many, that I we would have extremely small areas to PvP in. This could run as a test true, but PvP is already running as a test on ATS, that's what it's for.

For the higher levels, I'm not sure all the exact names of mobs people have conquered, and to add to your list, I'll admit that there must be several events that have yet to be unlocked. This I attribute to the holy orginal coolness of the developers. However, As the game stands, once 200 people are 250 and decide to run around killing these mobs that you can get to in 10-20 minutes (especilally at that level) the interest in the games difficulty may expire.

[zzeii]

As for outpot PvP radius, there are so many, that I we would have extremely small areas to PvP in. This could run as a test true, but PvP is already running as a test on ATS, that's what it's for.

Yea, it is 'running' on the ATS. In a small localized area near the border of fleeting gardens and majestic gardens. Not a big spot, but enough to hold a fair sized battle between kami and karavan factions.

Pvp in the roots on ats? Currently there aren't enough people around to test it out. Not to mention the Abyss of Ichor is not the most Ideal of environments to test it out in. Not all PR zones are created equal. Some are more inhabited than others. So using one, which would limit pvp to a very small section of the zone (especially due to the fact right clicking currently causes you to crash, so there is no 'easy' return to the roots) due to a high concentration of aggro mobs and patrols is not a good way to test it, in my opinion.

And as a logical step in the social evolution of any region, the clamoring for the prime spots/outposts would be a good first step. Then once people have established these outposts, then further the radius of pvp from outposts, making pvp more pervasive and stimulating guild conflict from one guild's harvesters getting attacked for harvesting someplace another guild dislikes. This could escalate into a region wide conflict, or it could not, dependant on the guilds.

Had the pvp in the roots since release, it would be a different story. But due to the fact that are adding it later, they should gradually do the changes. Shock from a drastic change in gameplay isn't good for gamers in general. Kinda like turning sim's online into a gta: online game. A number of people who were playing before the change won't take the change very well and leave.

[josephm]

Mechanics are far different from content. I work in the online ad industry. We have over 60 newspapers under our belt and I pretty much supervise one of the five products we put out. Mechanics take a long time to implement and a lot of focus. Getting that up and running is the key before content can even be considered.

PvP in the roots was most likely not available at release because it was simply not possible. However it was mentioned on the website and in pre-release interviews. Just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it wasn't coming. That's your fault. You didn't do your research and YOU messed up. Sorry, but true. Those interviews ARE there. I did a lot of research with a friend before we bought the game.

As far as the evolution of implementation, I think it's a really cool idea. Unfortunatly you are going to get people b**ching the whole way just like they are now. If you stretch implementation in increments of say 1/10 of what they are now, you'll problably get 2/3 of the posts you do now for EACH step. Another fault, is that you're going to have to implement partial patches of the complete idea you have in your head. This means more work for a company that is already running on a tight budget. Nevrax is NOT Paris Hilton's pet project.

There are most likely investors, these investors seek profit in a given time. You canNOT reinvest 100% of your money due to overhead and the people who helped you get the game started. No fault to them, they were given the promise of returns by the people who took the money in the first place.

Remember all the complaints about no filters and such about the item sellers on ATS before they were implemented? Correct me if I'm wrong but they DID make an effort to listen for major flaws. Point out flaws and help make it better, don't trash it. You'll make the game better for all of us AND yourself.

Btw, as far as enviromental concerns, when PvP is implemented, it might be nice if we didn't shoot spells and such through walls. Landscaping effects would mean a lot more strategy as far as class based movement and positioning are concerned. No one has really posted about it because it's an advantage when mob AI has to figure a route that gives you an extra spell to kill something. Kind of an exploit, but one that a lot of people figure out pretty quick.

I know a lot of worse exploits...of course I'm not going to post them. But people who know, and some who've used can vouch that I refuse to use these after I've experimented and discovered them. I recognize the spirit of the game for what it is and don't see this as some huge competition to get to the top. Basically I paid for the fun of leveling. Must sound stupid to some lol

[thexdane]

My pvp ideas are this:

Imagine member of guld x is in pyr minding his own busness when he sees 10 members of guild y (who he is at war with) in town. Now guild y knows that they cant take guild member x inside the city without being wiped by the guards so they wait for him to leave. what guild y doesnt know is guld member x is calling his guldmates and prepairing for an ambush.

Imagine guild x marching to destroy guld y because they had words over stratagies on how to defeat the kitin or who was better kami or karavan

Imagine guld x and y are at war and a kitin invasion hapens........Beautiful chaos.....

feal free to add flame or detract from anything said above and devs feel free to contact me for any further details.....lol

that's a bad thing why? it's called strategy. it sux for the ones getting jumped but that's the risk you run in war.

the fee thing is crap, the only thing i do agree with is no killing in town or some form of dmz

[ryzloner]

I would really love to have a team or guild take over anothers race city. they could try to maintain the siege until the others race has organize themself to take it back. Many people would surely don't like that but it would emphasize the duality of the races. Political tension would then raize between races and maybe of peace agreement would be make.

[josephm]

I would really love to have a team or guild take over anothers race city. they could try to maintain the siege until the others race has organize themself to take it back. Many people would surely don't like that but it would emphasize the duality of the races. Political tension would then raize between races and maybe of peace agreement would be make.

I think this is what outposts are going to be for. Guild apartments already have plans for options. Outposts will most likely have more. I wonder if we'll have to pay upkeep to keep the outpost? It'll be easier for the bigger clans, and since I'm in a small one I'd be on the loosing end of that battle. That's fine though, I'd just be happy that it's there.

I wonder if anyone is going to get a really rich one man guild and get themself an outpost? If you are a solo player, your fame translate directly into guild fame, so it looks like you'll be able to to just as many missions as the larger guilds. Pretty cool, though it'll be hard to be a one man wrecking crew if you ever get attacked!

[tetra]

There is always a lot of "well if you don't like not knowing if someone is friendly or not and can kill you then don't go there" type posts where folks argue about why it's a good thing for other people to not be safe from them because it adds suspense and "action" to the game. They argue about how it's a good thing since it gives folks a break from the "PvE monotony" or how it forces them to go out prepared for it and build up alliances and such to prevent problems. Occasionally there are even some folks who say "wow I don't really like to participate in PvP, but like not knowing if someone is going to come kill me or not", but they are generally an even smaller minority than the folks who argue about the importance of them being able to hunt down other people.

There are a lot of insults that fly around... people are carebears and don't want to participate in the game... carebears want to be shielded from the evil characters... carebear this and carebear that.... griefers are children.. griefers are this that and the other... but always it boils down to:
I wan't you to leave me alone and not ruin my gametime.
and
How dare you try to shield yourself from the game and try to deny my desire to kill you! why should you get your way when your way is to completely crush my game and make me play your game.

There are of course some shades of gray between the two positions... but generally they are one or the other once boiled down. Occasionally there are even arguments about roleplaying bandits or an "evil" character... but the number of times that these arguments move from the forum, and into the game, are so few and far between that they don't even qualify as something that actually exists in the reality of MMO's. This is rather funny however considering how often the argument is thrown out onto forums in an attempt to defend this antisocial behaviour.

So when I was reading a somewhat old thread in the UK forum, I was unsupprised to see someone attacked by the "how dare you try to make me not be able to kill you" crowd when they proposed a middleground. They proposed that those folks who want to be able to have unrestricted pvp in some areas to be given just that.... once a month. After all, they would still be able to threaten to kill someone all they wanted... and assuming they havent already killed someone who told anyone about it, the person they threatened wouldn't know if they could or not. Of course since they can only kill someone once a month, they would be hesitant to just randomly gank some forager without some very good reason to do so. While it's a good idea and would solve much of the problem... it's hardly fair to say that someone who wants to kill people that don't want to be killed should only be able to do so once a month. Unfortunately, having that set down to a smaller timeframe doesn't do much to solve the problem since there would simply be too much RPK then.

Sure the "how dare you make it so I can't kill you and force me to play your game" folks would argue that it's unfair that someone should only be able to kill people once a month and how in the real world there is nothing to stop bandits from doing just that... but then again, in the real world you don't respawn... when you die you die... when you get thrown in jail for repeated robbery or murdering folks you tend to stay there for a moderately long time at least. Few would expect that every random pk be reviewed by GM's and have said PK's sentenced to things like the balzhur command from muds of old (destroys all equipment and sets player level to 2). Something like silence from muds, which would remove your ability to talk to anyone but GM style players, is hardly useful in MMO's since folks will just use other communication methods. Public stockades or the skybox from beta aren't really useful since they just burn the time while sleeping/watching tv/doing other stuff, and play another character. UO proved that bounties don't work worth a damn since the guy with the bounty just gets his friend to kill him and splits the reward if possible, or him and his friend both have an alt that does it for the other person. But of all the evil and cruel curses that have ever been used to punish players, nuisance ranks up near the top of the list.

Nuisance varies from mud to mud, but in general it does several things depending on the severity of the nuisance flag. It lowers success rates. It has a chance to garble speech you sent or recieve a certain % of the time. It has a chance to induce extra delays in your commands a certain % of the time. Sometimes cause you to have a chance of cast defensive/beneficial spells on things/people you are fighting instead of offensive ones a certain % of the time. Sometimes cause you to attack yourself instead of buffing yourself or attacking your target. It often caused you to get hungry/thirsty/tired/etc faster... In general, it was pretty evil and was very effective punishment since there was no way of knowing how long it would last.

Why did I spend so much type talking about the nuisance flag that some muds have?... easy, it's a simple solution for dealing with the antisocial types who get upset with folks wanting to stop them from attacking and killing them when they don't want to be attacked (did that make your head spin too?).

Silence is bad... Nevrax hasn't shown any indication that they are listening to the vast crowd of folks saying that making unrestricted pvp possible, or turning areas into open pvp areas is a bad thing for the game. Given that silence, I suggest that one kill every month is free without concequences in the free for all areas that someone at nevrax seems intent on creating, no matter what it does to the playerbase. When someone takes it upon themselves to kill folks who don't want to be killed in these areas, the victim gets a prompt asking if they care to forgive the kill, or have it reported... after the first kill, the nuisance flag begins to grow in severity with each reported kill. To enforce folks wanting to not grief others as much it's simple to make the flag weigh much more when given by someone who was attacked while fighting mobs or harvesting, or within 5 minutes of doing any harvesting action or a fight with a mob. To prevent folks from simply using a teleport ticket and poofing whenever one of these "roleplayers" wants to start something, simply add an item or ability to the game that will lock out the ability to use teleport tickets for a number of minutes.

Reducing the value of ones nuisance flag should be difficult, but not impossible. An individual mark should drop off on it's own after 1.5 or 2 months of being there. It could be forgiven by the person who originally reported it if they are convinced somehow of doing so [/i](/forgive name, right click person and select forgive)[/i]. It could even be used to further the "roleplay" tossed around in defense of PK's/RPK's and partially forgiven when they escort lowbies of their own faction to far off spawnpoints such as those world trips... after all, what better way to make sure that a griefer doesn't ruin the day of a bunch of newbies and chase them away from the game, than to make sure said griefer wants to help them get there.

A system that works similar to the above means that it truely does not pay to randomly PK folks unless you enjoy it. It also means that both sides now get to think about that "risk" that is thrown about so often by the only side that doesn't incur it. It means that those folks who want to go out and hunt down other players who don't want to be hunted, are far more likely to actually take on that role of a "bandit" that is spewed out on the forums so often... after all, it's far better to threaten to kill someone if they don't give you part of what they are digging than to risk the very likely possibility that they will be hit with an even stronger nuisance flag.

Of course, I expect to be flamed since this would be cruel to those who only want to enjoy the game by harming it for others who don't particularly want to be killed or forced into every meeting being "should I try to kill him now, or risk him attacking me". I also expect that there will be a decent amount of support for the idea of an ability/skill to lock folks out from using a teleport ticket so they don't poof on a "fight" when caught not wanting to fight.

[neofuzz]

Oh my ****ing god another post debating the evils of pvp.

*runs screaming* waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa not again