We *must* have the tools needed for mass events to not be a cluster****

[lyrah68]

I have to say that I liked the raid engine on EQ. The idea that ONE guild could take on a boss mob and actually kill it was nice too.

I agree, I have had alot of experience with raids, and there is one thing that is certain. If you don't have a leader that has the SKILLS to lead, mainly the ability to convince people that he has a clue and deserves to be followed without shouting or using foul language, then ANY raid...in ANY game is going to basically run like this.


Raid gathers, people are running around, picking off mobs around the gather area, chatting in shout, ooc and other channels, this stage can take from 20 minutes to a few HOURS (I wish I was exagerating, but I have been on raids that the gathering took longer than the rest of the raid).

If more than one guild is "sponsoring" the raid, the cluster fudge of who is leader starts NOW. After some arguing in tells the loudest yeller wins, but this trouble is NOT over...not by a LONG shot.

Ok, somehow group leaders are chosen and the counting off is done. MAYBE the grouping up is done right...but many times at least ONE group is either caster HEAVY or mostly melee (the leftovers group, this group KNOWS they are going to die).

Sometime later the entrance into the dungeon/raid area starts. This part of the raid COMPLETELY depends upon two things. Will the "chain of command" hold out or fall through, basically how good are the raid leader and group leaders at leading. And how experienced at raiding are the rank and file. If either end of this is a little weak...the raid is GOING to wipe...plain and simple.

Ok...we will assume that the leaders are OK at leading and have the best of intentions, but they have to shout a bit, we will also assume that there are at least a FEW inexperienced raiders.

The leaders remind players to STAY close and assist the main assist/tank, and NOT to roam around between pulls. But the inexperienced raiders are used to the "grind" type of melee fights, especially chain pulling.

First pull:
Main tank is not buffed enough and dies on the way back, new main assist is found (hopefully one with better armor and more HP), Ok second pull. Main tank manages to agro a PILE of mobs and PANICS, bringing about 20 mobs to the party. Maybe this goes well, and maybe you wipe. But for debate ONE of the healers manages to save the day. NEW main tank is found.

During all this at least ONE of the inexperienced tanks has died at EACH pull, not waiting for the tank to gain FULL agro and not assisting. Another one has wondered around and either fallen into an agro or gotten into agro range. The raid wipes for first time.

Most of the raiders get rezzed back in and the pulling starts again (without the idiot that wiped the raid).

We all KNOW this scene, especially the EQers. It sounds like every Naggy or Vox raid I ever went to, and a fair number of the lower planes raids.

Without the ability to disinclude the "riff raff" (aka the inexperienced wipe bait raiders) the best thing you could do is not rez back any players that did a serious DUMB dumb. That way they would at least have to run back to the event.

My main suggestion on the events is that EVERYONE co operate on killing the enemy. The idea of competition against factions AND the enemy is frankly ludicrous... in my opinion.

[memiki]

I guess my understanding is if the leader is the one who is organizing the event they should be leader.

If I wanted to do an event, I would figure out I would be the one who would be leader. If I was doing all the work of planning and all would it not be logical.

I agree with you lyrah, if people continuely do really dumb things, I would just leave them and let them go. But so far the leaders on the events I have been on have always tried to help everyone. Which is very commendable on their part. But when they repeatedly do it, I say leave them.

If an event is organized by like several guilds yes than they should vote for a leader. The rest of us who are just attending it than have to go by their decision.

[neofuzz]

Without the ability to disinclude the "riff raff" (aka the inexperienced wipe bait raiders) the best thing you could do is not rez back any players that did a serious DUMB dumb. That way they would at least have to run back to the event..

Q:How does an inexperienced "raider" become experienced?
A:By joining the raids, making mistakes and learning from them.

My main suggestion on the events is that EVERYONE co operate on killing the enemy. The idea of competition against factions AND the enemy is frankly ludicrous... in my opinion

Well.. in my opinion the game is based around faction rivalry and the competitive events add to the fun.

People should try to be aware that it's still just a game, and you're doing it to have fun. When groups hunting, or in a raid, or in an event, experience difficulties... don't jump up and down and point the finger at eachother like a bunch of freaking idiots. Sometimes these things happen, be mature about it and take it on the chin, have a good laugh and move on. When players carry on like wankers because they had to respawn or their group didn't do as well as a different group in an event... it detracts from the game experience for everyone. If you're that uptight you shouldn't be playing, move on and find something you enjoy, something that doesn't turn you into Jekyl and Hyde.

[memiki]

Jumping up and down pointing finger.

Fuzz did it I saw him he did it. It is his fault.

[tetra]

The only problem with having a designated leader, is how do you pick who it is? And how do you make sure that events and raids don't become a things where a few people and their friends are always the ones who end up in the lead positions?

Mostly by ignoring petty grudges and having the folks with the brains and support of a large enough glob of power in the raid decide among themselves. Yes this means that you might not get to pick raynes. Yes this means that you might have to discuss among your group/guild who to support. Yes this means that even if you do support them, you might wind up following someone you didn't want to support. Lyrah explained it pretty well... when you have more experience in doing raids in MMO's raynes, you too will understand how the political bickering process works before mmo's

Q:How does an inexperienced "raider" become experienced?
A:By joining the raids, making mistakes and learning from them.

There is another thing needed... the ability to see who was the first person to attack a mob. During the matis>tryker>zorai crossing yesterday, there was a special group of dimwits that hung out in the back of the trail of folks, and consistantly attacked nonaggro herbavores. Not accidentally... no.. half the time we weren't even in a fight... just *poof* a healer is complaining that a yelk is attacking them cause they healed some folks... *poof* a bunch of folks are being killed by gnoofs... the entire trip. It was so bad that at one point folks were just asking the idiots who wouldn't fess up to simply not attack anything any longer and just follow the pack without fighting even when there is a fight. The ability to say go die is important neofuzz, there is a difference between accidental and intentional stupidity.

And you are at least partly wrong as well... one becomes an experienced raider, by going on raids, doing what they are told, and not making stupid moves that get the party wiped. Most folks have this thing called a brain that is able to tell them things like "hmm... those are aggro.... and lots of them... maybe I shouldn't run otu there into them" or "hmm we are getting attacked from behind... maybe I should say something" or "one person ran off after being told to by the folks in charge, but the rest of the group is standing here waiting... maybe I should stand here to or ask someone"... or even better.... Joe and steve are the same type of class as me... he heals things/breaks things/takes damage/melts things, maybe I should do what joe and steve do and stick with the group if one of them does something really effing wierd like running off to pull alone.

[memiki]

Oh tetra I love your posts.

Also lyrah yours are always soooo well written.

[jdiegel]

I'm an experienced raider and what I saw was the people who would have made a good leader announcing a plan, then taking off, then being ignored as people did the same crap that had got us all killed moments before.

[angus858]

I've never lead a raid but I've been on quite a few as a grunt. I've never died because a leader lacked "the SKILLS to lead." I've died many times because people refused to follow orders given by a leader they disagreed with. I'd rather be in a group with one poor leader than five good ones.

[neofuzz]

The ability to say go die is important neofuzz, there is a difference between accidental and intentional stupidity.

And you are at least partly wrong as well... one becomes an experienced raider, by going on raids, doing what they are told, and not making stupid moves that get the party wiped. Most folks have this thing called a brain that is able to tell them things like "hmm... those are aggro.... and lots of them... maybe I shouldn't run otu there into them" or "hmm we are getting attacked from behind... maybe I should say something" or "one person ran off after being told to by the folks in charge, but the rest of the group is standing here waiting... maybe I should stand here to or ask someone"... or even better.... Joe and steve are the same type of class as me... he heals things/breaks things/takes damage/melts things, maybe I should do what joe and steve do and stick with the group if one of them does something really effing wierd like running off to pull alone.

You forgot to add:

Let's all carry on like jackasses, yelling, bickering and blaming everyone else for screwing up so that anyone new to the groups/raids etc.. loses any respect they could have possibly had for those attempting to take charge of the situation.

From my own perspective that's what I think ruins these things the most, and is completely unneccessary.

[kirvar]

Some things I would like to see to make raids more organized:


1. A banner/flag over the Raid leaders head to make him/her more readly found. You could also include team leaders, just make the flag/banner smaller so team members can stick closer together. Nothing worse then trying to heal a team member only to find out that they have strayed to far from the group and are out of range for healing spells.

2. Maybe an icon similar to the guild icon that a player can chose to designate their main purpose ie. A sword icon to represent a Tank, a Red Cross to represent a healer ect ect...

3. A raid chat channel that team leaders can join. They still can hear their team members but can also hear and talk with all the other team leaders and the Raid leader.