Terrified about what patch 2 holds in store for us.

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tetra
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Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 6:24 pm

Terrified about what patch 2 holds in store for us.

Post by tetra »

With patch one we saw what was probably the most unified "omfg wtf?!" stunned complaint for an MMO community ever. For those who havent gone and looked at the ATS forum polls, two of the more troubling ones can be seen below.
Does a non-PvP game in a zone that has been declared PvP "faction" seem :
- Very playable
- Playable, but you have to be very careful
- Only playable as part of a group!
- To have become an area exclusively for the PK! Apart from PvP, it's impossible to play in this zone
Do the non-PvP games in the prime roots seem:
- Very playable
- Playable, but you have to be very careful
- Only playable as part of a group!
- To have become an area for the PK! Apart from PvP, it's impossible to play in the prime roots.
It's no big secret that PvP brings out the worst in folks, and that test servers and beta folks tend to generally be far less mean and nasty than the average retail server population can be. History has shown that turning a previously nonpvp commonly hunted area into +PvP area, will lead to it being void of life due to griefer/ganking behaviour. History has also shown that a +PvP area frequented by friefer/gankers whenever folks did try to hunt there which is turned into a nonpvp area, will cause it to become a good source of hunting for lots of folks. Examples I cite are from AO, borg camp was changed from -pvp to +pvp and almost overnight it became a ghostland where almost nobody ever hunted compared to almost always a group or two there... BCBLBDA became a place where certain folks would nuke an entire team off the planet whenever they found someone there, and hide behind the incredibly lame "I'm protecting my uncle who lives there, you shouldn't hunt there or should find somewhere else to hunt" style excuses... it was changed from +pvp to -pvp, and almost overnight it became a good hunting area. Further tweaks went in later and it became an area folks could almost always be found at.

History has also shown a few other things... the pro die hard pvp community is very small and more vocal than almost any other group. Many times things that are implemented or not implemented due to pvp concerns, are done at the expense of making the PvM game less interesting or actively worse. Folks tend to not mind places like the land control area tower wars and tarrasque dungeon in AO, or the RvR relic things in DAOC... but are often actively pushed away from a game when someone drops in unanounced and kill them/their group or ruins their evening because they wanted to PvP. AO has shown that folks will begin to resent the game if it turns into "set your alarm and try to be on for n hours every Y hours so that we can defend our towers" like happened at some points in time during AO.

If given a choice, folks will flock to the -PvP areas and avoid the +PvP areas if at all reasonably possible... examples are Felucca:Trammel in UO or folks running all the way across another zone to avoid having to spend 5 minutes inside 2H0 or other similar +PvP travel bottlenecks in AO.

I certainly hope that Nevrax doesn't pull a repeat of patch1 with this next patch... Certain things done badly enough cannot be completely undone, and Nevrax does not have a history of happy major patches.
kisedd
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Re: Terrified about what patch 2 holds in store for us.

Post by kisedd »

All of the current areas of the game are good the way they are now as PvE. Most zones in the current game are for high level players. It is pretty hard to PvE in many of the zones due to huge argo. I'd say it would be very tough to PvP in the prime roots. It's really tough for any but a high level experienced group to go to the roots.

It's hard to combine a hard PvE zone with PvP. Nev would do better to create new zones more like DaoC had or maybe like the DaoC battlegrounds to do PvP in.
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xcomvic
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Re: Terrified about what patch 2 holds in store for us.

Post by xcomvic »

Shadowbane has been doing this for years now... its really not a big deal. I am one for PvP or GvG as well as PvE. As long as we can loot each other :)
zzeii
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Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:59 am

Re: Terrified about what patch 2 holds in store for us.

Post by zzeii »

xcomvic wrote:Shadowbane has been doing this for years now... its really not a big deal. I am one for PvP or GvG as well as PvE. As long as we can loot each other :)
I left Sb for a reason, don't make me leave this for the same.
Poker of things, caster of sparklies, maker of stuff, digger of dirt, wanderer of paths....
Oh yea, and Princess~
r7chard
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Re: Terrified about what patch 2 holds in store for us.

Post by r7chard »

There seem to be allot of things in MMORPGs that bring out the worst in people, PvP doesn't have any special claim in that regard. I also disagree that PvPers are a minority among gamers. That might be true of 'free for all' PvPers with full corpse looting, but I think most players enjoy some form of consentual PvP.

What PvP does do to games, is highlight any imbalances between skills/classes that would in a PvE setting largely go unnoticed. It's imbalances between different types of skills that has me most worried for SoR when PvP is introduced. I can forsee allot of problems with making PvP fun and balanced with the way things currently work in SoR. I also strongly suspect that when they went about creating, testing, and balancing all the skills and abilities when making this game, it was done so exclusively with PvE in mind.

I do have faith that the developers will introduce a PvP system which makes sense in regard to the rest of the game. Meaning it will be part of a story driven game, and PvP will have meaningful goals in that regard, and not just be little games of Doom in certain zones. However, after patch one I do really worry that something that ought to require a great deal of testing and balancing before being introduced will be forced upon us half done and barely tested.
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pcheez
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Re: Terrified about what patch 2 holds in store for us.

Post by pcheez »

Just a little question, is fear fixed(in PvP) in patch 2 ?
Am i supposed to write something witty here ?
lyrah68
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Re: Terrified about what patch 2 holds in store for us.

Post by lyrah68 »

I think you hit the nail on the head. I do not like any game I have ever played that had PVP, I guess I found all the worst implementations of the idea in history. I don't want to fight another player, so having a consent of some form or other I would agree to.

As long as somethings do not happen I wouldn't mind it on the same server, but:
I don't want PVPers to get all the best materials
I don't want there to be PVP zones that are currently PVE, they should create NEW PVP ONLY zones, NO mobs, just a huge area where players can PVP.
NO mission or quest should EVER force a player to PVP.
If corpses are lootable in ANY form during PVP...there should be a warning button when you accept the duel that state in this area if you die, you are open to THEFT.


To me PVP is like sex, if you want to and can be responsible about it, have fun, but when you FORCE someone to have it with you...well I am not for that one.

I left Lineage2 due to griefers and the Illegal adena farmers. I don't want to leave this game due to that KIND of player moving in.

This game is civilized I would like to see it stay that way.
r7chard wrote:There seem to be allot of things in MMORPGs that bring out the worst in people, PvP doesn't have any special claim in that regard. I also disagree that PvPers are a minority among gamers. That might be true of 'free for all' PvPers with full corpse looting, but I think most players enjoy some form of consentual PvP.

What PvP does do to games, is highlight any imbalances between skills/classes that would in a PvE setting largely go unnoticed. It's imbalances between different types of skills that has me most worried for SoR when PvP is introduced. I can forsee allot of problems with making PvP fun and balanced with the way things currently work in SoR. I also strongly suspect that when they went about creating, testing, and balancing all the skills and abilities when making this game, it was done so exclusively with PvE in mind.

I do have faith that the developers will introduce a PvP system which makes sense in regard to the rest of the game. Meaning it will be part of a story driven game, and PvP will have meaningful goals in that regard, and not just be little games of Doom in certain zones. However, after patch one I do really worry that something that ought to require a great deal of testing and balancing before being introduced will be forced upon us half done and barely tested.
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neiana
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Re: Terrified about what patch 2 holds in store for us.

Post by neiana »

lyrah68 wrote:I think you hit the nail on the head. I do not like any game I have ever played that had PVP, I guess I found all the worst implementations of the idea in history. I don't want to fight another player, so having a consent of some form or other I would agree to.
hrm. Well, Lineage2 and Shadowbane are extremely well known for being PvP.. anybody that EVER played games like that know factually that this will happen and it can happen at any time, for any reason. These people know what they are getting into, and should not have to consent - ever.

Ryzom IS a little different, however it was widely touted as having a PvP ideology somewhere along the lines. Also, the Kami v. Karavan is building up to it very nicely.
As long as somethings do not happen I wouldn't mind it on the same server, but:
I don't want PVPers to get all the best materials
I don't think they will, if anything PvP will be mainly focused on Guilds and the Kami v. Karavan... when these things are implemented they won't be providing special mats, I don't think. However, special SKILLS - which thanks to a lot of people eventually whining like children, these skills will more than likely be "in PvP combat only" as far as fight is concerned.
I don't want there to be PVP zones that are currently PVE, they should create NEW PVP ONLY zones, NO mobs, just a huge area where players can PVP.
While I agree with part one, I do not see any way they can do this unless they split up some current outlands. The SECOND part of this statement is ridiculously silly. No mobs? What? Excuse me, but under no circumstances do I *EVER* want to see "no mobs" in a region with this as an excuse. PvP should be done in the EXACT same "environment" that PvE is done. I mean, if you had a no-mob region, then the only PvP you'll EVER find is where a guild or two gets together on the forums and plans to meet there. Which would really be a pathetic mistake for such a lore-based game. I mean, if this was the Wild West where we could all meet at high noon and take 10 paces sure... but in Ryzom? :P
NO mission or quest should EVER force a player to PVP.
I think this is ridiculous. My personal belief, is that if someone reads the mission and accepts it, he is not "forced" into it. I think that PvP based missions are perfectly acceptable, however, I expect it should work on a GUILD MISSION only. Aside from a simple attack/defend outpost, it could also work in this fashion:

Guild Leader A takes mission: "A guild faithful to the Karavan has been selected to send assassins to kill the leader of <your Kami guild name here>, if you accept this mission you should be wary for the next 24 hours - and kill the woud be assassins."

*IF* the above mission is accepted, THEN a new mission is allowed to guilds with Karavan fame

Guild Leader B takes mission: "Servant of the Karavan, Leader of <insert guild name>, <Kami guild name> has been working against us - and we ask that you shall take steps to remedy the situation, you have 24 hours to seek out <Guild Leader A> and assassinate him."

No fame or points or anything will occur if nobody from Karavan guild sees the Kami Guild Leader, and vice versa - however, there will be lots of time for the two guilds to go at it ANYWHERE without interfering with other players.
If corpses are lootable in ANY form during PVP...there should be a warning button when you accept the duel that state in this area if you die, you are open to THEFT.
*rolls eyes* Oh mommy Strong Kipee, those homins are so mean! I didn't know they could take my flesh if they killed me!"

To me PVP is like sex, if you want to and can be responsible about it, have fun, but when you FORCE someone to have it with you...well I am not for that one.
AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR CONSEQUENCES PEOPLE! (sorry, random I hate teens that won't take care of kids but still want all the fun mini-rant)

- N
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xcomvic
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Re: Terrified about what patch 2 holds in store for us.

Post by xcomvic »

Haha. Nice reply neiana...always good to hear your opinions :)
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tetra
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Re: Terrified about what patch 2 holds in store for us.

Post by tetra »

It's obvious that someone has either never been harvesting in the prime roots, doesn't know anyone who has, or didn't bother to read the opening post... Do the non-PvP games in the prime roots seem... makes it quite obvious that there are going to suddenly be a lot of diggers who become even more frustrated an annoyed because of PvP being forced on them, along with a sudden change in the requirements needed to go through for supreme mats. It's also obvious that some folks are either very low in level, or havent bothered to try hunting in higher level areas.... there is lots of good hunting to be had in most of atys with the right group combination, saying that "aggro is huge" doesn't change the fact that you just need a group that can deal with that and move to a nice spot... having said nice spot become +pvp is not going to improve the game in any way shape or form when the servers mature and the folks hunting there aren't the top few percent that deal with each other regularly.

It's a brutal fact that the "pro die hard pvp community" is very small, trying to lump all of the folks who will participate in pvp if need be or participate on occasion, does not suddenly make a very small and incredibly loud minority into something larger. PvP can add to a game, but that does not mean that all implmentations of PvP will add to the game; nor does it mean that many of those implementations will not do so at the expense of the entire rest of the game.

Ryzom was never "widely touted" as being a massive pvp game, the closest you can come to that claim is very early prebeta stuff, some silly goof off pvp stuff during beta, and some arenas/consensual duels.. there was even a handful of stuff about how some folks at nevrax wanted to do more in the way of PvP stuff in the game... but wanted to spend the time to do it right in a way that would vastly improve the game. Judging from the vast majority of the polls on the ATS forum, this is not going to be done right. I don't recall ever having seen an ad for Ryzom that talks about any sort of PvP focus, let alone a strong PvP focus.

Furthermore, making PvP "optional" in that you are useless if you don't participate in lots of PvP stuff or PvP battles is not "optional"... go ask any level 200+ player in AO trying to cast their 200+ spells when shadowlands came out without the use of tower boosts how "optional" pvp from notum wars was.
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