Now maybe this should really go in the Wishlist but maybe it would be good to through out to the rest of you first and have it beat around a bit.
I've found in the groups that I've fought with across many MMORPG's and RTS's alike is that we always fall into the many vs. one rut of combat. A few players get together, one pulls a mob, everyone blasts away until they're dead. Rinse and repeat. It's a proven and time tested formula for many. Adds are considered incredibly dangerous and to be avoided at all times. Usually they're dealt with via crowd control spells until the initial target is down and then the secondary target can take the focus.
What if...
(ok, this is real simple in my head but I'm having trouble putting it here so bare with me)
The basic gist is if you're fighting a mob one on one you have let's say a 60% - 70% chance to block dodge parry etc. (this is not an absolute value, just a reference point). If another mob comes and attacks you then you have 60% - 70% chance to defend the one you're attacking, but the one you aren't attacking you only have a 10% or 20% (more like post patch 1) chance because your focus isn't on them. Now the numbers can vary for sure, and maybe it's not just a chance to avoid getting hit but also an amount of damage mitigation. Then leave crowd control spells marginally effective and helpful rather than necessary. So then if your group is fighting a mob and there is an add, the proper response is to have one of the tanks start fighting that add directly rather than putting it off until later with crowd control. Given the supportive nature of many mobs in Ryzom this occurs a lot and could easily create larger many vs. many combat situations that would be really intense, but quite feasible for a moderately skilled group and great fun.
This is a real rough draft that I'm just throwing out to the community. Knock it around, find it's faults, and let's see if there's a desire for such a system and if so a way to make it work. Don't worry about niceties just rip it up and let's see it's guts. Exploiter expertise is welcome!
~Elf
Constructive, positive idea about combat
Re: Constructive, positive idea about combat
I see where you are going with this and you are right, what you suggest can be a lot of fun for sure! But if I understand correctly you are suggesting that the effectiveness of crowd control spells should be decreased, and I think that is a bad idea.
As things are right now you can employ the tactic that you are suggesting, get together a tank heavy group and go for it! But what about those times when you have only one tank and a mage/healer? If crowd control has been reduced in effectiveness that partnering is going to have a hard time of things.
Rather than changing combat, why not, as a group, change tactics? Or am I overlooking something?
As things are right now you can employ the tactic that you are suggesting, get together a tank heavy group and go for it! But what about those times when you have only one tank and a mage/healer? If crowd control has been reduced in effectiveness that partnering is going to have a hard time of things.
Rather than changing combat, why not, as a group, change tactics? Or am I overlooking something?
- Miyann, Hunter Mage of Matis
Re: Constructive, positive idea about combat
Well, I wasn't really suggesting that they reduce crowd control more than it is now, just that they wouldn't have any need to increase back to Pre patch 1 levels.
It is possible to do this now, what I'm trying to get at is a way to move it from possible to appealing. Find some way to make the risk/reward worthwhile.
I keep envisioning battles like you see in movies like Gladiator, Braveheart, The Patriot, and Troy. The battles I keep seeing in these games are basically like porn gang-bangs.
~Elf
It is possible to do this now, what I'm trying to get at is a way to move it from possible to appealing. Find some way to make the risk/reward worthwhile.
I keep envisioning battles like you see in movies like Gladiator, Braveheart, The Patriot, and Troy. The battles I keep seeing in these games are basically like porn gang-bangs.
~Elf
Re: Constructive, positive idea about combat
Seeing as the 'crowd control' spells here are single target and require the mage to do nothing else, it's already pretty standard for the secondary tank to take any adds and keep the aggro on them instead of the mages, while the mages nuke.
Maybe I'm not understanding what you are saying, but this is already implemented as far as I can see.
Maybe I'm not understanding what you are saying, but this is already implemented as far as I can see.
Re: Constructive, positive idea about combat
I have been in full groups where fearing an add has actually saved our skin.
We were in pyr at clopper hill and had a mass spawning on us. We had two fearers, and two healer/nukers, the rest were the meat grinders. The two fearers kept the adds literally DANCING back and forth from the wall back to us and back to the wall again (fear mob one, see mob two run up to hit you, fear mob two, see mob one running back, but group isn't ready yet, refear mob one. Rinse repeat. both fearer doing this tactic).
This was one battle that was VERY unboring. It was one of those moments in a game that you remember for a LONG time. One where after the fight everyone flops to the ground panting and resting exclaiming, "Oh my GOD we lived!!"
We had a moment like this later that night, we were resting and another player brought a pile of misc agro mobs on top of us. We were doing ok until the healers all died.
We were in pyr at clopper hill and had a mass spawning on us. We had two fearers, and two healer/nukers, the rest were the meat grinders. The two fearers kept the adds literally DANCING back and forth from the wall back to us and back to the wall again (fear mob one, see mob two run up to hit you, fear mob two, see mob one running back, but group isn't ready yet, refear mob one. Rinse repeat. both fearer doing this tactic).
This was one battle that was VERY unboring. It was one of those moments in a game that you remember for a LONG time. One where after the fight everyone flops to the ground panting and resting exclaiming, "Oh my GOD we lived!!"
We had a moment like this later that night, we were resting and another player brought a pile of misc agro mobs on top of us. We were doing ok until the healers all died.
Re: Constructive, positive idea about combat
So basically you saying this:
Combat tends to be boring because people stick to the time tested formulia of "someone get the mob, group kills it". Your suggesting that mobs become more group aggro, and when that happens lessening the effectiveness of crowd control skills in order to force the tank to go fight the second mob instead of waiting for the support of the group. If that is correct I have the following questions:
1) Is people are tired of the "pull mob to group" routine, then why not just run up to a group of Kippes (or any other group agro mob) and start fighting. If you want many mob vs. many player combat it's very easy to find, why is there a need for a new way for mobs to agro?
2) Isn't the idea of group combat that of depending on the entire group? Why would you want to change the group dynamic so that everyone depends on the tank and not the way it is now where everyone depends on everyone?
3) Right now in game there are mobs that when you attack one, many will come from a distance and gang up on you. If one is looking for more of a challange, why not just try that?
I guess it's just not clear what you are trying to accomplish with the changes you are suggesting.
Combat tends to be boring because people stick to the time tested formulia of "someone get the mob, group kills it". Your suggesting that mobs become more group aggro, and when that happens lessening the effectiveness of crowd control skills in order to force the tank to go fight the second mob instead of waiting for the support of the group. If that is correct I have the following questions:
1) Is people are tired of the "pull mob to group" routine, then why not just run up to a group of Kippes (or any other group agro mob) and start fighting. If you want many mob vs. many player combat it's very easy to find, why is there a need for a new way for mobs to agro?
2) Isn't the idea of group combat that of depending on the entire group? Why would you want to change the group dynamic so that everyone depends on the tank and not the way it is now where everyone depends on everyone?
3) Right now in game there are mobs that when you attack one, many will come from a distance and gang up on you. If one is looking for more of a challange, why not just try that?
I guess it's just not clear what you are trying to accomplish with the changes you are suggesting.
Re: Constructive, positive idea about combat
I'm not sure I'd like a change like this because of what it'd do to a solo fighter. A solo fighter has enough troubles when a second mob aggros. This change would mean it's almost certain death.
I rarely, if ever, hunt solo. I play with 2 friends and we always hunt together so the concern over solo hunting isn't really one that affects me personally, but I think it's best for the community if solo gameplay (in all areas) is feasible.
I rarely, if ever, hunt solo. I play with 2 friends and we always hunt together so the concern over solo hunting isn't really one that affects me personally, but I think it's best for the community if solo gameplay (in all areas) is feasible.
Oshido - Tryker
Aylwyne - Matis
Cenwulf - Fyros
Kazutoyo - Zoraï
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Aylwyne - Matis
Cenwulf - Fyros
Kazutoyo - Zoraï
Aripostle server
High officer of Ballistic Mystix
Maps / Encyclopedia / MOBs / Crafting Resources / Atystrology / Armor Gallery
Re: Constructive, positive idea about combat
I definitely agree - there should be a medium between solo and group hunting, however with this idea I think that it might be possible to mix thatin there as well. Someone mentioned to me it would be cool to have a skill set that crosses different skills... I.E. magic and fighting.. if you could combine some of those stanza's it would make things much easier for a soloer and help this idear out too.aylwyne wrote:I'm not sure I'd like a change like this because of what it'd do to a solo fighter. A solo fighter has enough troubles when a second mob aggros. This change would mean it's almost certain death.
I rarely, if ever, hunt solo. I play with 2 friends and we always hunt together so the concern over solo hunting isn't really one that affects me personally, but I think it's best for the community if solo gameplay (in all areas) is feasible.
Re: Constructive, positive idea about combat
Good thread. I'd like to add in something.. Look at these factors here...
+To get Xp for killing a mob one must be involved in the creature's death somehow.
+Xp and loot are directly related to the creature's difficulty level
+The fastest way to kill something is to focus a group's power on it.
=Therefore the fastest and simplest way to get xp is to have a huge group focus all its power on one really strong monster.
Additional mobs entering the fight are mainly undesireables that have to be 'crowd controlled' until its their turn to feel the group's concentrated might. In Ryzom, additional mobs and groups of mobs cause extra chaos with players having to worry about getting Xp from all the creatures. This implies a lot of target switching to 'tag' each creature to ensure getting xp when it kicks the bucket.
I would say that, to promote groups taking on more many vs many type encounters, a solution needs to alter the basic factors that fuel these types of tactics.
What if there was an XP bonus for fighting multiple mobs at once? This would encourage groups to go out and get into the biggest, craziest fights they can take. Assuming the bonus was substantial enough to justify the increased abuse and risk of horrible death.
Example: Say that, for every additional aggro the group gets, increase the XP value of all current aggros. So if I'm fighting a creature worth 10XP and another creature aggros me, both those creatures get +2XP added to their value for that fight. Each additional aggro adds +2Xp as well. Even better than a +% or +X bonus would be to have the 'multiple aggros' bonus for a given creature depend on its difficulty rating. Having a monsterously hard creature join the fight suddenly makes all the other creatures worth a lot more because they've got some big help.
Also, having to tag all combatents to get xp is counter-productive. To better support many vs many combat, there really should be automatic group xp splitting. Having to heal, affect, or damage a creature to get XP for it means that mass combat cheats contributing group members out of their xp sometimes.
As for the thrid factor (focused might), well. I don't really have a good solution for that one. Although, since Ryzom has full collision detection, it would be cool to have mobs that can fight in formation to limit the number of melee folk who can engage any one of them at a time. I think that having the more intelligent enemies use formations would be awesome as well as something unqiue that only Ryzom can offer. (since other MMO's are weak and don't have full-collision)
+To get Xp for killing a mob one must be involved in the creature's death somehow.
+Xp and loot are directly related to the creature's difficulty level
+The fastest way to kill something is to focus a group's power on it.
=Therefore the fastest and simplest way to get xp is to have a huge group focus all its power on one really strong monster.
Additional mobs entering the fight are mainly undesireables that have to be 'crowd controlled' until its their turn to feel the group's concentrated might. In Ryzom, additional mobs and groups of mobs cause extra chaos with players having to worry about getting Xp from all the creatures. This implies a lot of target switching to 'tag' each creature to ensure getting xp when it kicks the bucket.
I would say that, to promote groups taking on more many vs many type encounters, a solution needs to alter the basic factors that fuel these types of tactics.
What if there was an XP bonus for fighting multiple mobs at once? This would encourage groups to go out and get into the biggest, craziest fights they can take. Assuming the bonus was substantial enough to justify the increased abuse and risk of horrible death.
Example: Say that, for every additional aggro the group gets, increase the XP value of all current aggros. So if I'm fighting a creature worth 10XP and another creature aggros me, both those creatures get +2XP added to their value for that fight. Each additional aggro adds +2Xp as well. Even better than a +% or +X bonus would be to have the 'multiple aggros' bonus for a given creature depend on its difficulty rating. Having a monsterously hard creature join the fight suddenly makes all the other creatures worth a lot more because they've got some big help.
Also, having to tag all combatents to get xp is counter-productive. To better support many vs many combat, there really should be automatic group xp splitting. Having to heal, affect, or damage a creature to get XP for it means that mass combat cheats contributing group members out of their xp sometimes.
As for the thrid factor (focused might), well. I don't really have a good solution for that one. Although, since Ryzom has full collision detection, it would be cool to have mobs that can fight in formation to limit the number of melee folk who can engage any one of them at a time. I think that having the more intelligent enemies use formations would be awesome as well as something unqiue that only Ryzom can offer. (since other MMO's are weak and don't have full-collision)
Re: Constructive, positive idea about combat
Boy, I HATE to point this out, but other MMORPGs have that very thing, where mobs who attack the group at the same time give something called a 'group bonus'. In Ryzom, on the other hand, adds are a nuisance, worth xp for sure but no incentive other than that to actually go after it. As it stands, the most efficient use of a group's abilities is to kill one mob at a time, as quickly as possible, lather, rinse, repeat, ad nauseum.tensalis wrote:Good thread. I'd like to add in something.. Look at these factors here...
+To get Xp for killing a mob one must be involved in the creature's death somehow.
+Xp and loot are directly related to the creature's difficulty level
+The fastest way to kill something is to focus a group's power on it.
=Therefore the fastest and simplest way to get xp is to have a huge group focus all its power on one really strong monster.
Additional mobs entering the fight are mainly undesireables that have to be 'crowd controlled' until its their turn to feel the group's concentrated might. In Ryzom, additional mobs and groups of mobs cause extra chaos with players having to worry about getting Xp from all the creatures. This implies a lot of target switching to 'tag' each creature to ensure getting xp when it kicks the bucket.
I would say that, to promote groups taking on more many vs many type encounters, a solution needs to alter the basic factors that fuel these types of tactics.
What if there was an XP bonus for fighting multiple mobs at once? This would encourage groups to go out and get into the biggest, craziest fights they can take. Assuming the bonus was substantial enough to justify the increased abuse and risk of horrible death.
Example: Say that, for every additional aggro the group gets, increase the XP value of all current aggros. So if I'm fighting a creature worth 10XP and another creature aggros me, both those creatures get +2XP added to their value for that fight. Each additional aggro adds +2Xp as well. Even better than a +% or +X bonus would be to have the 'multiple aggros' bonus for a given creature depend on its difficulty rating. Having a monsterously hard creature join the fight suddenly makes all the other creatures worth a lot more because they've got some big help.
Also, having to tag all combatents to get xp is counter-productive. To better support many vs many combat, there really should be automatic group xp splitting. Having to heal, affect, or damage a creature to get XP for it means that mass combat cheats contributing group members out of their xp sometimes.
As for the thrid factor (focused might), well. I don't really have a good solution for that one. Although, since Ryzom has full collision detection, it would be cool to have mobs that can fight in formation to limit the number of melee folk who can engage any one of them at a time. I think that having the more intelligent enemies use formations would be awesome as well as something unqiue that only Ryzom can offer. (since other MMO's are weak and don't have full-collision)
*shrug* I left a solid game for this one because I was tired of the old game, but now, I'm getting tired of this one. But, with nowhere else to go (no cash to buy a new game with) I'm just hoping things get more interesting, and more fun, soon.
And, if you've been jumped by a pack of goaris or gingos, you've no doubt noticed that they don't come at you from one direction, but from all around you. THEY use the 'many vs. one' thing, too, because it works. Critters in this game are NOT stupid, as they may be in others. I'm still afraid to go solo melee (86 2handed) against a strong kipee (approximately equal lvl) because of that overpowered stun that lands often enough that I'm back to foraging to work away the dp.
Only thing I can constructively add to this thread is to put in my vote for a 'group bonus' because taking on more than one mob increases the risk level more than mere numbers would suggest, somewhere between logarithmic (x + log(x)) and geometric (x*x) progression I would tihink, and the reward needs to be adjusted accordingly. Otherwise, it's just 'lather, rinse, repeat' all over again.