the patch and darwin's theory

[thantos]

hehehe...sorry thantos...tooooo much coffee makes for double vision and double posting hehehehehehe

S'ok, too much time on my hands out here waiting for a playable version.. Kinda goin' Koo Koo too

Are you trying EQ2?

[isabow]

S'ok, too much time on my hands out here waiting for a playable version.. Kinda goin' Koo Koo too

Are you trying EQ2?

My youngest is but the jury's still out with me. I step with great caution on anything backed (note: not developed) by SOE since SWG went belly-up after they let the crafters run amuck and ruin the economy. Even after a year, it's still the same. So, if SOE is upper management, I tend to look at them from a bino point of view - at a great distance.

You EQ2?

[jjm152]

My youngest is but the jury's still out with me. I step with great caution on anything backed (note: not developed) by SOE since SWG went belly-up after they let the crafters run amuck and ruin the economy. Even after a year, it's still the same. So, if SOE is upper management, I tend to look at them from a bino point of view - at a great distance.

You EQ2?

Difference between EQ2 and SWG can be put down to two words.

Ralph Koster.

For the love of God, I don't understand how anyone in their right mind could let that man anywhere near their game.

PS: I'll be in Norath tomorrow. Maybe see some of you there

[isabow]

Difference between EQ2 and SWG can be put down to two words.

Ralph Koster.

For the love of God, I don't understand how anyone in their right mind could let that man anywhere near their game.

PS: I'll be in Norath tomorrow. Maybe see some of you there

ooooooo! There's a new couple of words for me - Ralph Koster. Sorta rolls off the tongue.

What gives? Who's RK?

[jjm152]

ooooooo! There's a new couple of words for me - Ralph Koster. Sorta rolls off the tongue.

What gives? Who's RK?

He was "Designer Dragon" for Ultima Online. He got a job at SoE to work on SWG. Basically the guy is long on very bad ideas. Well, thats not entirely true. His ideas are generally *good* so long as you don't think about them too hard or actually try to put them into a game.

If you hate the crafting system in SWG, he is the man you specifically hate.

Here is a very good post mortem on SWG that you might find illuminating:

http://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/tburke ... stery.html

[isabow]

He was "Designer Dragon" for Ultima Online. He got a job at SoE to work on SWG. Basically the guy is long on very bad ideas. Well, thats not entirely true. His ideas are generally *good* so long as you don't think about them too hard or actually try to put them into a game.

If you hate the crafting system in SWG, he is the man you specifically hate.

Here is a very good post mortem on SWG that you might find illuminating:

http://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/tburke ... stery.html

Yeah, on a whim, I put in my Google search "Who is Ralph Koster" and came up with his website. To hear him tell it, he's the answer to all the mmog's created today. Ultima Online, SWG, you name it...he stands by his work and is not afraid to puff that chest out.

I really enjoyed reading (skimming) the post-mortem on SWG. I especially like the craw in my shorts paragraph on unlocking the Jedi slot.

Reading on and reading the subsequent links on this guy, I'm wondering if there are any games out there that aren't in the same boat as SWG and many others when it comes to lead designers finding a formula and grinding out what works for them? I mean, it makes them money, gets 125000 people on board in a week (only to have most leave 6 months later). But making about $2mil per month isn't a bad haul for a new game. But at what cost? Unhappy gamers? Busted games?

One of the more unique MMOG's out there was Motor City Online. But EA Games pulled it because of lack of funds - a re-shifting of funds to The Sims. But MCO was definitely unique! And a blast to play!

Are there any really CREATIVE designers out there now? Or are they all the same cookie-cutter developers you see building neighborhoods down the street? All of them look alike underneath the brick and mortar and function just the same. Nothing unique.

Am I jaded?

[jjm152]

Are there any really CREATIVE designers out there now? Or are they all the same cookie-cutter developers you see building neighborhoods down the street? All of them look alike underneath the brick and mortar and function just the same. Nothing unique.
Am I jaded?

Frankly we are at the limit of creativity as far as MMO's go these days. Even the most innovate ones borrow elements from each other or older games (some even from MUD's and other now near extinct predecessors).

So yeah, I'm afraid to say it but I think you are a little jaded

I have pretty much given up on trying to find that "unique experience". Nothing in any of the MMO's these days is going to recapture that original sense of awe I had. So instead I have come to grips with what these games can reasonably offer and focus on that when trying to make a decision.

For instance:

- Streamlined interface and controls.
- Easy access to information.
- Entertaining Combat/Crafting mechanisms.
- Ability to progress solo as well as in teams.
- Lowest level of "grinding" or repetition that I can find.

All of these games are repetitive in some way or another. The closest I have come to a *non* repetative game is CoH - and thats only true if you do *every single mission*. You can advance in that game by doing missions and many of the story arcs are very entertaining. I believe I have done all of the ones that are available in the game.

Even then, eventually you run out of content.

Pretty much until players are actually given tools to create content (something no modern RPG to date with the exception of NWN has done, I'm not including LP-MUDS and their ilk) then players will always devour content faster than developers can create it.

At that point, you're basically looking for re-playability. Thats why sometimes I prefer class based systems. Sure its nice to have a wide skill tree like Ryzom (and I do find the concept intriguing...) but when all the content is devoured, the only way to continue enjoying the game is to try playing it from another angle (class).

I will give the original EQ some credit, they have been mad about producing new expansion packs ever since Scars of Vellious and exceptionally good at continously adding new encounters/loots to the game. The quest development side of the game (or missions if you will) are obviously harder to put into a game in mass quantities, so you have to cut anyone a break on that if you want to be objective.

I think the one exception to this rule is PvP based games. These games do have a sort of "player driven" content. Take Dark Age of Camelot for instance - the Realm vs Realm war there provides a great deal of opportunity for people to leave a mark on the world via capturing keeps/artifacts. And leaving a mark on the world is what makes these games, so-called "persistant worlds". At the lowest level, your character is a form of persistance, at a much grander level the world itself can be altered through player actions.

Btw, many games promise this but very few of them actually deliver - so I wouldn't believe anyone who says they will give you this holy grail when many companies with much larger budgets so far have failed

Anyway, these games change in increments, not revolutions. It'll be a long time before you find something that is "unique" compared to what is offered now, and quite possibly by that time it will not be very unique when compared to its 1 or 2 year old predicessors. Remember, when EQ hit the shelves for the first time it was >very< unique. However, in all actuality it was merely a 3d world thrown over an old Diku-Mud engine, which people had been playing with for almost a decade previously

Cheers

[lazarus]

Are there any really CREATIVE designers out there now? Or are they all the same cookie-cutter developers you see building neighborhoods down the street? All of them look alike underneath the brick and mortar and function just the same. Nothing unique.

Am I jaded?

There are many very creative designers out there, but unfortunately it's not up to the designer to decide what games are made, it's up to the bean counters.

You may have noticed that recently there have been quite a number of dev studios and publishers going under, and the ones left behind are getting bigger and bigger. The reason they get bigger is because they're run by professional managers, not by gamers like in the old days. This means they're successful businesses bur not necessarily good game makers.

Point in question (and I mentioned this is another thread) - the top games at the moment like GTA San Andreas etc are all either sequels, franchises, licenses or a mix of them. The only companies that can afford licenses like Spiderman, Harry Potter etc are the big ones, and all they want to do is exploit the name to create as much cash as possible to keep the shareholders happy and look good on the stock market.

Unfortunately, the big companies are more interested in making good money than in making good games. The smaller companies have to do their best to try and 'clone' what the big companies do, or they simply disappear. If by some miracle a small company makes a great game and it's taken up by a major publisher, that publisher will then swallow the small company in order to minimise the risk of losing the intellectual property and the rights to any sequels.

It sucks, but that's the way it is these days.