Third Faction Poll

[faedyne]

Conflict and resolution, is pretty much the basis of every story. I am not championing the cause of PvP. I am asking that the developers create their story arc and let the players resolve it and not deus ex machina an answer be conjuring up a third faction that makes the other two factions obsolete.

Creating a third Homincentric faction at this point in Atysian history would be comparable to creating a WW2 game and having the indigenous New Zealand, "cargo cult", tribes go from hunter-gather to air craft carrier producer in a span of a few months because some players do not want to be an American or Japanese soldier and they want to fight WW2 from the Melanesians perspective and they want to be able to win. It might be a fun, but don't expect the players who thought they were playing a historical WW2 simulation game to be very happy.

Ryzom is not a game about realistic conflict between two warring factions. point 1: The Kami VS Kara in Ryzom is pretty much entirely optional. The PVP in the PR isn't limited to K VS K.
point 2: We're not dealing primarily with two powers, we're dealing with 4 Homin races split along two interfering, foreign factions; AND at least two forces of mutual enemies (Kitin and goo).
If you think the HOMINS following Kami or Kara think that the HOMINS of the opposing faction are a greater threat than the Kitin, you're sadly mistaken. (and the war will be between the Homins. No Homin has been able to touch a Kami or Karavan.) The Kitin and goo have always been a greater threat. I can only imagine that the divide of the factions has been made possible by the safety and security that has downplayed the Kitin threat to them.
I think you overestimate how many people in the game are rabid supporters of their faction.

[sidusar]

I did always think the factions were given too much of a role at the costs of the 4 civilization governments. The history of Atys has those governments mostly deciding the politics, with the Kami and the Karavan mostly staying back in the shadows and advising but not directly interfering (except in the Great Swarming), as mysterious shadowy entities should. Ingame the past years the politics have been mostly dictated by the 2 factions and the Rangers (who seem to represent the "for homins!" side) stepping up and actively interfering in homin's lives, with the governments just sitting by passively and content to let things happen. It's been nice to see them play a more active role in the last events.

[0balgus0]

I did always think the factions were given too much of a role at the costs of the 4 civilization governments. The history of Atys has those governments mostly deciding the politics, with the Kami and the Karavan mostly staying back in the shadows and advising but not directly interfering (except in the Great Swarming), as mysterious shadowy entities should. Ingame the past years the politics have been mostly dictated by the 2 factions and the Rangers (who seem to represent the "for homins!" side) stepping up and actively interfering in homin's lives, with the governments just sitting by passively and content to let things happen. It's been nice to see them play a more active role in the last events.

Ok, that's it. How do I gain guild membership with the Rangers?

[901941]

Ok, that's it. How do I gain guild membership with the Rangers?

People the Rangers work for Elias gah! So my handsome Bahtan you come and join me, guild invite message is ready. -prances in Aen armor-

[danolt]

I think you overestimate how many people in the game are rabid supporters of their faction.

That is actually the core belief of my argument, that people do not care about the factions and that most would prefer that the factions just went away, entirely. I would argue that the lore and every mechanism in this game was designed with that idea taken into account (players ignoring the factions) and I think a third faction totally changes every fundamental design and theme of the game.

Conformity vs. individualism, nature vs. development, science vs. magic, stewardship vs. ownership and so many more themes disappear with the advent of a third faction. Homins, at present lack the ability to survive without factional assistance. The racial governments take their cues from the extreme positions the factions hold in return for homin survival. Take that away, the need for the Kami or the Karavan, and who would listen to either of them?

The four races blend the ideals of the Kami and the Karavan to create their own unique cultures. The addition of a third, moderate faction, waters down those distinctions until essentially they all become the same thing. From a literary stand point the Kami and Karavan lose all of their significance, the moment a sustainable homin faction enters the saga.

From a player perspective I honestly think it is safe to assume a minimum of 90% of us would prefer to play a character that is in a moderate faction, as opposed to joining something our "characters" only partially support and have more then a few things that we would wish were not there at all. From a roleplay perspective, how many would choose an alien, bossy, manipulative faction as opposed to one run by a fellow Homin whose only "dirty laundry" is he saved a bunch of Homins using stolen tech? It would be the end of the Kami and Karavan aligned player characters. The Kami and Karavan would become the same as the Kitin, NPC's to be beaten back.

The character I play is a devout follower of Jena, that does not mean he is a unquestioning disciple of the Karavan. A Homin run faction, that does not contradict his core beliefs would be very attractive to him and you can bet he would take a very serious look at it. Homins are 'real', they move around, talk to us, explain things to us, players can be Homins, they are understandable. The Kami and Karavan while visible are reclusive, secretive, and have goals that are completely unfathomable. They are not 'real.' Has anyone ever just sat and talked with a Kami or a Karavan, ever? They ignore us 99.9% of the time and when they do talk to us, they treat us like pets or children and even in those times when they do decide to communicate they just stand there while some Homin reads the decree.

However, without the Kami or karavan,..we all die. Change that, and it all changes.

[901941]

Yes adding a third faction is a big obstacle mechanically. The developers will have to figure out a way to add all the new content needed, plus then comes testing, and bug fixing, would be like starting all over again. Lot’s of work and no money to do it, plus who is going to wait for more content of this magnitude when they have so much to work with now. Not possible to do now possibility will never happen I’m aware of this. But let’s pretend that it is an option? Is it a good idea? Yes I believe it is.

I think the design is flawed in that it forces us to stay the same, Kami vs Karavan, black & white, and because of it we will never be able to step away from that setting. As you once stated the factions have become window dressing for teleports. Lore-wise the factions need to become alive and make the storyline more meaningful, they can’t stay in the background and not be affected by homin individualism and beliefs…homins can’t stay in the dark forever. A third faction can help contradict their positions as the only higher powers, giving homins the chance to affect them but it doesn’t necessary mean it kills the game. For the very reasons you state the racial powers are codependents of the factions and therefore will remain so forever because they lack the necessary force to stand up against them.

I see Elias Tryton as a secret faction, just not fully visible, but a faction nonetheless and he can be used to move the storyline forward in a whole new direction, a direction that leads to the unveiling of the third faction. The third faction cannot be created by homins alone, the storyline character is needed, and one that gives goals and ideas even if those ideas are as flawed and mysterious as the Kami and Karavan. The third faction will change some things but it won’t kill the game.

Divergence vs. concurrence can be added with a third faction, nothing else needs to change to a degree that will make the other factions obsolete. The governments can take on a more independent roll taking racial fame into play and making it worth something. Can also help the economy, making tickets more expensive, having to pay extra to enter cities aligned to the opposing factions – e.g. I doubt Matis will change their Karavan leniency, Zorai stays with Kami as well, Trykers align to Trytonist (it seems the most fitting since they already see Elias as Jena’s equal, husband), and Fyros go neutral which I think they would be happy to do - all four races continue to preserve their cultures and agendas. The third faction does not mean for the homins, doesn’t mean perfect faction, only a third option that has some weight and represents those of us that don’t see the Kami or the Karavan as good options.

Plenty of content can come from the third faction idea. Not all has to be negative effectively it can be done and changes can be good. Ryzom was created for years of playing… well it has been four years now with lots of obstacles but we are still stuck in the same place with no answers and nothing new. Only hope. I know I’m blowing my own horn here because I’m a tad impatient and conflicted because I want to stay, help, and play Ryzom, but what is there to keep me interested if not new ideas. I’m sorry if I’ve come across annoyed because people don’t agree with me, has not been intentional. I’m currently 16 weeks and four days pregnant and mood swings take over me. I can respect others opinions because that is all I have my self.

[danolt]

My concern is strictly on the fear of a third faction getting produced offstage without any events in game leading to it. If the "cult of Elias", like Athena, were to be born full grown and completely equipped holding a vague patch note for a birth announcement, I would be sorely disappointed. The loss of what should have been an incredible story line would be forever gone, and the integrity of the lore would take a huge hit.

I am not opposed to a third faction. I have never been opposed to the implementation of a third faction. I am opposed to the creation of one. I'd be happy if they started that story arc tomorrow. I can think of a few I would use first, but who cares. I do really think a third faction deflates the story possibilities on Atys. Although, one day, Homins will get off this shrub, new factions and dangers can replace old friends and enemies. Conflict. Resolution.

I recommend not adding a full blown third faction until it is time to start wrapping up the Kara/Kami story arc and begin the process of introducing new themes and symbols to replace them.

I see the lore as designed so that the players would forge the middle ground, not the developers. We were suppose to rebuild Atys and its cultures, adding color to the "black and white" and once it was more or less settled, move on to the next stage.

In a stagnant environment, folks move to the middle, without development, new plot lines or events, it all becomes the same. From what I could glean from the animation announcement we are all going to be doing some work with pastels real soon.

[scarazi]

not in reference to any post previous, but in answer of the thread title;

It has previously been tried by Sunce to start a third faction, to oppose the others, but would there ever be a situation where a third faction could be created and managed properly by a collective of homin players? New religions pop up all over the place in RL stealing ideas and concepts from other religions, holding their own beliefs and morals. It would probably be more of a cult than a third faction, but could anything player driven without game dynamics be appealing enough for it to become part of atys without being shot down by both the rp and casual community?

We all know a pvp follow us or suffer the concequences type statement would never wash, but if a homin were to invite players to a talk on his/her views and his/her beliefs, back it up with events and a professional outlook on things including government/democracy plans, future of atys, current diplomacy and negotiation, it could be pretty interesting

on the other hand I feel a faction needs its own haven, a place to put its own temple, its own history and place of future evolvement, only devs can provide this, and I cant see them doing it for a player created cult

and back to the discussion;

I agree with Pero that things are too black and white right now, but its a difficult balance, if you introduce Elias wearing a multicolored sweatshirt it may distract attention from the others

[suib0m]

This game has so many possibilities, a story that is potentially extremely rich in where it can go, and yet we seem to be stuck, as players, simply on the first couple of pages. This game has always meant to be an evolving story and we, once again, see hints of this capacity with the current event crew.

Why not just play a part in the given framework knowing that there will be a possibility for more in the future? This is the framework we have now, but there are so many hints of what may come in the future. Even if they are failed ideas of the past, we can draw them out over time and make them realities if the story dictates.

What we know currently is that there is a large polarization between races and between cults. As far as the cults go, there are two clearly defined cults that have fealty among the race leaders and overwhelmingly among the races. We, as characters, are a very small fraction of the populace. We are the heroes and maybe the leaders of the future, but right now we do not hold sway.

Elias is a ghost that may or may not exist (even less so than the other "gods"). Some rumors say he was just a homin, others say he was much more, but no one knows. A secret group of homins formed up under his name because they obviously did not believe in the ways of Jena or Ma-Duk, but relatively little is known of them as well. These homins have been feared by the populace and banished by the race leaders. Recently they have gained some solace from the tentative peace between the peoples, but we are at a time when that peace appears to be drifting away again. If anything, Trytonists should be punished for their beliefs. Any third faction should be shunned as traitors to their people gods of the people.

However, the future holds something different. Obviously we can eventually expand up into the canopies and further down into lower roots. There is neither direct communication with Jena or Ma-Duk (tho Mabreka may commune with Ma-Duk, it's more likely he just preaches the words passed from Hoi-Cho, who claimed contact with Ma-Duk), so who knows what their soldiers (kami and kara) really believe? What I see as a possibility for your third faction is that it comes to light that both Kami and Karavan may have both pro-homin and anti-homin internal factions (anti-homin meaning they do not work towards the betterment of all homins). Imagine that the anti-homin factions gained control of surface and and used "loyal" homins as their soldiers in the war against each other (similar to how it is now, but more escalated). However the pro-homin factions decide to work together to try and expand, which brings the Trytonists to light.

Just a thought, but hopefully giving less of a black-and-white of how we can live with the current workings to bring about more options for the future. I believe it is important to stick to (and work with) the story though, as it is the story that is one of the strongest elements of Atys.

Peace,
- Sui

[sx4rlet]

I think a third faction would be good, but it shouldnt be Elias. The guild of Elias is - in my humble opinion - meant to be underground and secret.

A real third faction would be too big for Elias. Instead of Kami vs. Karavan, it would become a triangle, which would make all much more interesting. I don't have an idea to make a good third faction, maybe some kind of crossbreed between kara and kami (which would be really evil, if you combine the right things), but might be much more as well...