Honor (Honour) Points

[totnkopf]

Are you referring to the hour or so event killing the big Kitin ?



There is no "twice the effort', just different effort. Using the same example:

I kill x [insert mob name here] for the kami dude
You kill y karavan for the kami dude

How is one, by definition, more "effort" than the other ?

It is twice the effort if you have to accomplish both of those missions to obtain the reward. A non-pvper would just do the kill mob quest, while a pure pvper would do just the kill kara quest. If a player wanted both, they'd have to do both... thus twice the effort. This is assuming that there are separate rewards for pvp and pve, which is what I was talking about in past posts.

Every en masse exit by guilds, guilds splitting up etc has been over some aspect of PvP

nope... biggest exodus was over patch 1 where Nevrax attempted to 'right some wrongs' and essentially botched the game. By the time they had reversed course on it, a massive portion of the game had already left.

2nd biggest exodus was the release of WoW. No one wanted to stick around for a grind game with nothing to do once you had ground up the levels and they all left for greener pastures.

3rd is where you finally see some pvp causing some twisted knickers. the Ep 1 event caused quite a stirring and caused a large portion to leave.

Again, what evidence to supprt this ? If history, game and human, has taught us anything, when the gulf between have's and have nots gets to large, revolution takes place. In our history that's lead to things like guillotines, in game history, it's lead to mass exits.

I use Ryzom as evidence... its dying, slowly but surely. And from the start it took the everyone can do everything stance. Didn't keep anyone around, did it? How many people do you know that have been here from the start and never left, once. A handful if that. Not very promising, especially since a lot of those people lurk around and have voiced that unless this game sees some radical changes, they're not coming back.
No choices to be made makes for a boring game.

Wow, I can't say I am proud of anything I have accomplished in game....well perhaps other than having survived mastering 6 HA crafts without going braindead from all that digging.

not sure what your point was here, but congrats. I mastered them all too

So if players get their 10% buff .... your saying that "they are more inclined to stay in-game and continue a play style they enjoy".....you're arguing my side now.

go and point out where I said that they should ignore PvE content. I think you'll be searching for a good while since I've been an advocate for adding ANYTHING to this game. in its current form Ryzom will die. There is no argument about it, its just a matter of time as players slowly get bored and leave. With that in mind, wouldn't anything, even pvp related stuff, be a good thing if it kept some of these people in game? I'm all for more PvE content, reworking bosses so its less of a campfest, more rep grinds, etc. But I'm also all for reworking pvp, adding more pvp rewards, and generally making it so that pvp isn't limited to an OP fight or the random gank down in the PR.

Somehow you're attempting to get it so that enjoying one means you hate the other, which isn't the case. The two aren't mutually exclusive and I know a large portion of players in Ryzom who enjoy both aspects of the game. So why then would you punish them for enjoying both?

If a player makes the PERSONAL choice to NOT partake in an aspect of the game, then they cannot expect to receive the items earned through that part of the game. You don't pvp? fine, don't expect to get the stuff awarded from doing it. I don't RP. If they added RP items, I wouldn't be interested in them, nor would I be whining about how I can't obtain them through PvP.
This also relates to your neutrals post that appears to have vanished... If you CHOOSE to be neutral, you CHOOSE to take the added hardships. Welcome to a world where two powerful races are affecting the lives of its citizens. You choose to ignore them, fine, power to you, but you won't be receiving the gifts of the people you scorn. Thus, limited TPs, no faction items, etc.
Each choice has its ups and downs. As a kami, I don't get the cool looking Kara shield... its a bummer, but I wouldn't dream of going kara just to get it. As a neutral, you don't get the TPs or factional items, but you get to stay out of the wars and the random political debates that go with having picked a side. You can keep your moral superiority intact and claim that we're all chasing the elusive carrot or whatever. Its not an in-game item or whatever, but that seems to be something the neutral cherish over shinies.

[jared96]

It is twice the effort if you have to accomplish both of those missions to obtain the reward. A non-pvper would just do the kill mob quest, while a pure pvper would do just the kill kara quest. If a player wanted both, they'd have to do both... thus twice the effort. This is assuming that there are separate rewards for pvp and pve, which is what I was talking about in past posts.

That world doesn't exist. There is no scenario whereby a PvE'er can get the goodies. You are changing the rules saying twice the effort by someone doing two things. My premise was based upon only doing one. To match your postulation, I'd say

Peep A kills 10 peeps and 10 Mobs = 20 dead things
Peep B kills 10 Mobs + 10 more Mobs = 20 dead things
Peep C kills 10 Peeps + 10 more Peeps = 20 dead things

All Same effort.....all should have same **value** not necessarily same exact, reward. Why is that a problem for you ?

Somehow you're attempting to get it so that enjoying one means you hate the other, which isn't the case. The two aren't mutually exclusive and I know a large portion of players in Ryzom who enjoy both aspects of the game. So why then would you punish them for enjoying both?

I'm saying the opposite, you're misreading. You want to have classes of have's and have nots. What I am saying is give everyone different paths to reach the same goals. What I am saying "to those who want special stuff" and ONLY to those who want special stuff that only PvP'ers can have, it only works if you do one of two things:

a) Give "equal opportunity access" to both PvE'ers and PvP'ers. Give PVE'ers an alternate means to get all stuff that may be different but just as good. This is what Ryzom is all about. Unlike other games, you are not burdened with "Well since you chose this class you can be good at this and not good at that". Give an advanatge to one side, real or imagined, and the other side will feel disenfranchised. Those people leave. This is The "I ate my cake and since I don't still have it, I'll take your's approach.

b) If you really feel the need to be "better", for every positive buff, there is a corresponding negative buff. Like if I could buff up slash resistance by adding "x", there should be a corresponding decrease in blunt resistance.

If a player makes the PERSONAL choice to NOT partake in an aspect of the game, then they cannot expect to receive the items earned through that part of the game. You don't pvp? fine, don't expect to get the stuff awarded from doing it. I don't RP. If they added RP items, I wouldn't be interested in them, nor would I be whining about how I can't obtain them through PvP.

Let me rephase....because one chooses not to run around and let's say "gank diggers", they shouldn't complain about not getting "honor points" for doing so. What is so terribly wrong to, say for example, get honor points for wiping out a kitin patrol ? Are Kamis aligned with the kitins now ? Did theKitins join the Kara Alliance ? Why is killing a defenseless homin "honorable" and wiping out kitins not honorable ?

This also relates to your neutrals post that appears to have vanished... If you CHOOSE to be neutral, you CHOOSE to take the added hardships.

Why must there be hardships ? Why not have hardships for those that kill homins forgetting that there is a common enemy here ? Where's the hardships for those that essentially aid the kitin by decreasing the number of combatants against them ? Why the "I ate my cake and there's plenty left but I don't want you guys to have any cause you're not worthy enough to eat cake" approach ?

Let's flip it around. How would you respond ? .... if tomorrow the dragon awoke and the existing powers or a third power entered atys striving to unite hominkind offering new mats and OP'sin the depths of PR with double the cats and goodies output ... it takes combined kara and kami power to transport to this depth so nuetrals only will be able to earn (via quests for both factions) both the 50 kami and 50 kara fame necessary to get TP's in these areas. Killing a homin drops ya 1 point fame for whatever faction the dead dude belongs to.... an eutral death drops ya down a half point in both.

If I am choosing a menu for a large dinner function I might pick three entrees, one beef, one chicken and one fish, all comparably priced in order to fairly accomodate varying tastes. For dinner in Atys, if we take the "my tastes matter and others don't" approach, we might wind up with:

24 Oz Bodoc Steak (1,000 dappers)
Igara Nuggets & Stinga Fries (120 dappers)
Fried Baldusa Burger (120 Dappers)

Now if I don't eat steak and I'm still paying 1,000 dappers for my so called "choice" of entee, I think I'm gonna spend my money elsewhere that evening. Defending the menu choices by saying "Well they coulda had steak if they wanted to, it was their choice so they should stop whining" doesn't work. It's not only insensitive, it's myopic to the extent that success depends upon pleasing the largest amount of people and people are not going to be pleased when they feel shortchanged.

[totnkopf]

That world doesn't exist. There is no scenario whereby a PvE'er can get the goodies. You are changing the rules saying twice the effort by someone doing two things. My premise was based upon only doing one. To match your postulation, I'd say

Peep A kills 10 peeps and 10 Mobs = 20 dead things
Peep B kills 10 Mobs + 10 more Mobs = 20 dead things
Peep C kills 10 Peeps + 10 more Peeps = 20 dead things

All Same effort.....all should have same **value** not necessarily same exact, reward. Why is that a problem for you ?

its not... and I suggest you go re-read my past posts to understand my points.

I'm saying the opposite, you're misreading. You want to have classes of have's and have nots. What I am saying is give everyone different paths to reach the same goals. What I am saying "to those who want special stuff" and ONLY to those who want special stuff that only PvP'ers can have, it only works if you do one of two things:

a) Give "equal opportunity access" to both PvE'ers and PvP'ers. Give PVE'ers an alternate means to get all stuff that may be different but just as good. This is what Ryzom is all about. Unlike other games, you are not burdened with "Well since you chose this class you can be good at this and not good at that". Give an advanatge to one side, real or imagined, and the other side will feel disenfranchised. Those people leave. This is The "I ate my cake and since I don't still have it, I'll take your's approach.

b) If you really feel the need to be "better", for every positive buff, there is a corresponding negative buff. Like if I could buff up slash resistance by adding "x", there should be a corresponding decrease in blunt resistance.

a) that's one way of looking at it or you could see it as adding some pro-longed life to the game. A new player will want to earn the pvp gear and the pve gear (assuming they enjoy some pvp) and as a result they will hang around longer. As it stands now, people grind a skill up and get bored since there's nothing to use that skill towards (there are exceptions, but this is the average player).

b) again, the positives and negatives are built in and by adding a negative debuff to anyone who PvEs makes it an incentive for them NOT to PvE. You punish people for taking part in more aspects of the game by creating a negative aspect to doing one thing. Having gear or vanity rewards associated with one does not mean you need to add some negative aspect in the opposing field and it would be stupid of any game developer to implement such a system. Punishing your player base for taking part in the various aspects of the game they developed is a quick way to kill off your game.

Let me rephase....because one chooses not to run around and let's say "gank diggers", they shouldn't complain about not getting "honor points" for doing so. What is so terribly wrong to, say for example, get honor points for wiping out a kitin patrol ? Are Kamis aligned with the kitins now ? Did theKitins join the Kara Alliance ? Why is killing a defenseless homin "honorable" and wiping out kitins not honorable ?

again, go back and read my previous posts and you'll find I was all for adding PvE rewards. You want honor points for killing kitin? sure. I'm simply suggesting that the rewards for the two realms be different. It increases the amount of things a player can do. Even if it is another grind, its one that is sufficiently different and is different enough from the rest of the game to make it something players might want to do.

Why must there be hardships ? Why not have hardships for those that kill homins forgetting that there is a common enemy here ? Where's the hardships for those that essentially aid the kitin by decreasing the number of combatants against them ? Why the "I ate my cake and there's plenty left but I don't want you guys to have any cause you're not worthy enough to eat cake" approach ?

uhoh... busting out the lore on me. Well, if the kara aligned races accepted Maduk and joined our side to fight the kitin, I'd have no problem with any of them. I doubt they will, so I kill my enemy... both kitin and kara. Considering a group of 5 can kill virtually any kitin on Atys, I'm not too worried about them taking over any time soon.

I'm all for people eating cake if they pay the same amount of cash I did for it. You earn the cake, you can eat your cake.

Let's flip it around. How would you respond ? .... if tomorrow the dragon awoke and the existing powers or a third power entered atys striving to unite hominkind offering new mats and OP'sin the depths of PR with double the cats and goodies output ... it takes combined kara and kami power to transport to this depth so nuetrals only will be able to earn (via quests for both factions) both the 50 kami and 50 kara fame necessary to get TP's in these areas. Killing a homin drops ya 1 point fame for whatever faction the dead dude belongs to.... an eutral death drops ya down a half point in both.

And why would the kara and kami help people who would somehow be better off? They're practically gods on this planet so helping the fools who refuse their gifts wouldn't be high on their list of things to do.

Also, again, you're punishing people for playing the game. You don't like pvp. I get it. So don't pvp, but don't put in place stupid game mechanics that basically drive players away. Ryzoms dying quick enough, best not hasten it. Catering to a faction of the game that every developer of Ryzom has so far seen as unimportant is a pretty stupid business move.


Anyway, think I'm done arguing the same points over and over. You can hate PvP all you want, its obviously not going to be leaving game. Either partake or don't, but don't complain about aspects of the game that others obviously enjoy. I hate ranged combat, but I don't strive to have it removed from game. Its there, I don't partake, I could care less what they do to it and that's that.

[tr808]

This discusion is gonna kill this game.

[setstyle]

This discusion is gonna kill this game.

I lost track of things 3 pages ago.

It's fairly safe to say that, unless extremely bored, any devs surfing the forums will probably find these text walls insurmountable.

[901941]

I’ve been reading this post from the start and some have legit points to both arguments but the main message is that allowing ONLY pvp’ers to earn “faction items” is to me uneven when there are Kara and Kami PvE’ers who are equally devoted to the factions.


Faction items are exactly that “faction items” and any player that has converted in either faction should have access to the gear and content offered by the temples. To me honor points shouldn’t ONLY be earned through PvP. Someone suggested temple maintenance and a vague suggestion of using harvesters to earn honor points by gathering items to upkeep the temples. I think this sounds like a good idea and at the very least one option to consider.

I’m a Kami, have been for most of my gaming life on Atys, but I don’t particularly participate in PvP. I have nothing against those that do - they have the same right as I do to enjoy the game and if PvP makes it more fun to them then let them enjoy it. One needs to flag and be tagged in order to enter PvP and therefore it is the individual’s choice to PvP. But there is no reason why I should be excluded from faction items if I choose not to PvP. I worked just as hard to earn the fame and convert, and I walk on Atys just as proud to be Kami (faction aligned). A Kami/Karavan PvP’er is no better than a Kami/Karavan PvE’er…that’s how I see it. I’m not suggesting that PvP’ers be excluded; I am asking that a new method to earning honor points be generated for those of us who want access to the faction items without having to PvP. There is room for all of us here.

On Neutrality: Many people associate neutrality to trytonist when it has been pointed out that both are very different. To be neutral means not belonging to any faction and staying impartial to the faction conflicts. I agree with this 100%. The benefits of being neutral, as it stands now, are perfect. Neutrality does not need to be a faction. Should there be a third faction that stands strong against the Kami and the Karavan, YES! (Let’s keep the topic of honor points on this thread and talk about neutrality/third faction here.)

[symolan]

I worked just as hard to earn the fame and convert, and I walk on Atys just as proud to be Kami (faction aligned).

That's why you're able to use the fame porters.

One needs to work even more to have access to the faction goodies.

While I actually don't care if PvE'ers get access to faction goodies as I'm not the jealous kind there are some very good arguments why it should not be so.

Our gods obviously like to see us kill each other and hand out rewards for being a killer. Anyones choice to please their gods or not.

If one could gain faction points by PvE why actually should that be dependent of the faction. Still all the neutrals would be excluded although they are (mostly) prototypes of PvE'ers. So actually faction-neutral rewards would be needed for PvE.

(Aligned) PvE'ers do have access to faction rewards, they only need to put on the flag and kill some people. If I don't like to hunt bosses I don't get the nice mats, but I still would have access. I simply don't choose to use it.

Further it is certainly pointless to have any kind of PvE-penalty on PvPers like suggested previously. Why should I be penalized on a part of the game because I like another part too? If anyone doesn't like PvP he simply stops doing it, so the decision "to-be-a-PvEer" and have the suggested penalty on PvP is not a penalty at all. Didn't see any pure-play PvPer lately as it seems quite hard to avoid the environment...

If it is absolutely needed - and to me there are other things that seem to be more important to work on for the devs - neutral PvE-rewards should be created accessible to everybody doing the things necessary to have access.

The benefits of being neutral, as it stands now, are perfect.

There are benefits?

[thlau]

There need to be a way for the PvE player, because the:

• faction rewards can only bought at the temples, not the old construction sites
• the temples were build by crafters using raw materials provided by harvesters
• the efforts of the harvesters were only hindered by the raiders of the opposite faction and kitins infesting the areas

So as one that helped to build the temple of Fairhaven by harvesting and crafting, I feel cheated if now if only those kind of homins should have access to the factional items, that tried to hinder my efforts.

[symolan]

There need to be a way for the PvE player, because the:

• faction rewards can only bought at the temples, not the old construction sites
• the temples were build by crafters using raw materials provided by harvesters
• the efforts of the harvesters were only hindered by the raiders of the opposite faction and kitins infesting the areas

So as one that helped to build the temple of Fairhaven by harvesting and crafting, I feel cheated if now if only those kind of homins should have access to the factional items, that tried to hinder my efforts.

The temple wars were a single event. A player who doesn't know that HP was introduced in the temple wars perceives them to be completely indepent from the list you state here.

[thlau]

The temple wars were a single event. A player who doesn't know that HP was introduced in the temple wars perceives them to be completely indepent from the list you state here.

Yes, you are right it was a single event that lasted several weeks, and honor point were introduced to offer special rewards to all that participated.

The real work was done by the PvE players, and to me that is reason enough why the should not be excluded from the factional item.