Honor (Honour) Points

[michielb]

the cake is a lie anyway....


I'm all for more PvE content and even think that it should take priority over pretty much anything else. I'm simply suggesting that while adding PvE content, they add some stuff for PvPers and have gear that is centered around PvP if they are going to have stuff purchased through pvp related currencies.

At this point anything new to the game would be welcome, PvE or PvP related... at least it would show that they're making some serious headway into improving the end-game aspect of Ryzom

I find myself in the odd situation of agreeing, for the most part, with a PvPer.

Your lengthy post on the intricate relationships between pro-pvp and anti-pvpers was incredibly deep and took me several hours to simply break your argument down into its base points. I must commend you for having such a radical stance on the issue and for having the courage to come forth and state your opinion with such vigor. However in the future, could you limit your post length and word size to something a non-english major could easily read?

Simply LOL

[kalindra]

Funny, I find that form of PvP to be more casual friendly and much less frustrating than OP battles. Must be because I despise politics and all the crazy shenanigans that come with them.

Who's up for a tagged yubo ball tournament ?

[jared96]

Some really good posts with good, well thought out arguments presented. Of course there's a few "what I like is important and what other people like shouldn't count" arguments too. I think the main gist however is that there is room for both. Not oft mentioned that all the major changes to the game since the 1st year .....just about all have been PvP related. So yeah, I can see how the PvE'ers aren't feeling the love.

But there's no reason one side's benefits have to be a detriment to another. If either side feels cheated, that segement is more likely to leave game. I have never seen a PvE'er ask for special treatment or something that a PvP'er can't get. Most PvP'ers its seems don''t mind having PvE's getting equal benefit through alternate but equally challenging routes. The segment of the player base that feels that PvP'ing should somehow entitle that segement to something other segments can't have is not one I understand nor does it seem to be highly represented in this thread.


Here's an idea for example. Why not have a "slider" for each player ..... Let the stats for the crafted item as they are serve as a base. Now then take the % of the time a player spends "tagged" drive the slider to the right so to speak where he gets a + buff for PvP and a corresponding - buff for PvE.

So lets say we give a range of 10% on the buff for PF. That uber set of HA that gives 60% PF resist would slide 10% of the 60 to 66% if a dude spent 100% of his time tagged and drop his PvE resists to 54%. A dude who never tags, gets his PvE at 66% and his PvP at 54%.

[kalindra]

So what if I like both ? Does it means I'd have to time myself and spend exactly 50% of my time tagged in order to avoid being penalized ?

[jared96]

So what if I like both ? Does it means I'd have to time myself and spend exactly 50% of my time tagged in order to avoid being penalized ?

That's the point .... there's a segment that wants what is best for them and how it impacts anyone else is really not important to them. Everybody has an idea that they should get special stuff for the way they choose to play the game and dismiss anyone who it affects negatively as "whiners". So how are the devs supposed to come up with a system that gives each and every player the advantage they want over everybody else all the time and in every situation ?

If you have a car that weighs 2500 pounds, costs $20k and gets 18 mpg, you might be concerned primarily about three things.....crash survivability purchase cost and cost of operation. All other things being equal, if you want to improve one of those, you have to sacrifice one of the others.

Crash survivability goes up with increased weight but then mpg goes down.
Crash survivability goes up with more expensive materials but then purchase cost goes up.

I never liked the saying but "Ya can't have ya cake and eat it too" fits.

In short, the answer to your question is simple .... If ya don't want disadvantages, then don't ask for advantages.

[kalindra]

The thing is I'm not asking for any advantages on any side, but I'd be penalized on either. If you like both PvP and PvE you'd be screwed because some people cried that they want shinies too. What if I PvE while tagged up ? Is there a way to have neither the advantage nor the inconvenient ?

[totnkopf]

The segment of the player base that feels that PvP'ing should somehow entitle that segement to something other segments can't have is not one I understand nor does it seem to be highly represented in this thread.

The problem with the "everyone can get everything" stance is that there is no incentive for players. Ryzom has nearly always taken that stance and we can obviously tell that the player base grows bored with it pretty quickly. The developers need to cater to the different group and having a 'one size fits all' approach won't work and will actually drive people away rather than bring them to the game. Its part of the mentality behind special loot drops or titles, for example. If only a select group of people can get a title, then the title means something. If everyone has it, then it means nothing.
How many do you see walking around with an " X Apprentice" title on? Not many because it just means that you hit level 20 in a skill. How many do you see with Kami Champion on? Not many and those that have it wear it proudly.

It is possible to cater to all of the major play styles in Ryzom. If a person wants to PvE, dig, craft, and PvP to get all the possible gear in game, power to them. They've obviously put in a ton of effort to get it all and should be rewarded. If you don't want to pvp, that is your choice and one where you are removing yourself from an aspect of the game. You should not be rewarded for not taking part in that part of the game and thus shouldn't be getting gear from it. In other words, "Ya can't have ya cake and eat it too" is right on the money.

In short, the answer to your question is simple .... If ya don't want disadvantages, then don't ask for advantages.

Using your example, you're only rewarding the 'pure' player. Either they PvE or they PvP. If the player does both, then their resists are sitting the middle and they're at a disadvantage regardless of what they do. In other words, you're punishing those who were taking part in the different aspects of Ryzom.
"congrats in taking part in all Ryzom has to offer. We've decided to screw you over now. Reminder: the account management section is where you cancel your account"
By having gear thats centered around a persons play style, it rewards the player and encourages their type of play style. If a pvper gets pvp gear, they are more inclined to stay in-game and continue a play style they enjoy. Same applies to a crafter who went and group mats to gain a new crafting plan by turning in crafted items.

[michielb]

How many do you see walking around with an “X Apprentice” title on? Not many because it just means that you hit level 20 in a skill. How many do you see with Kami Champion on? Not many and those that have it wear it proudly.

I have the title Karavan Champion and I don’t wear it, it’s ancient history and only few people know where it came from anyway. You also see a lot of people wearing higher level titles that are open to all: there are plenty of Master diggers and crafters around that wear their title and even “X Apprentice” can be seen now and then. Granted there are some to whom it’s important to distinguish themselves by something that is rare and hard to get and it’s true there’s not a lot for them in Ryzom but then Ryzom was never about Phat Lewt and hopefully it never will be.

Its part of the mentality behind special loot drops or titles, for example. If only a select group of people can get a title, then the title means something. If everyone has it, then it means nothing.

Phat Lewt only introduces another level of grind or worse sees rise to camping for random drops and frankly that’s not a game I want to be playing. AO and WoW are games that have taken camping and gear grind to great heights so if that’s what you want there’s a place for you.
Amazingly the attraction of Phat Lewt is such that everybody has to have it resulting in everybody, except those who either don’t care or lack the skill/right friends, looking the same.

The “Champion” titles, while nice, are the equivalent of the T-shirt you buy at a concert all it tells people is that you were there. If you want to stand apart from the crowd you’re ultimately better off without Phat Lewt and fancy titles because when nothing gives any special advantages you can choose that which suits you best instead of having to go with the “Sword Of Ultimate Doom” like every other warrior on the planet because it’s “the best one out there”.

It is possible to cater to all of the major play styles in Ryzom. If a person wants to PvE, dig, craft, and PvP to get all the possible gear in game, power to them. They've obviously put in a ton of effort to get it all and should be rewarded. If you don't want to pvp, that is your choice and one where you are removing yourself from an aspect of the game. You should not be rewarded for not taking part in that part of the game and thus shouldn't be getting gear from it. In other words, “Ya can't have ya cake and eat it too” is right on the money.

I understand the need to distinguish between “us” and “them”, I don’t approve but I understand it. I also understand why especially PvPers have that need. After all they enjoy a more competitive style of game play and are therefore more used to dividing the world up into winners and losers however being a PvPer doesn’t automatically make you a winner. You want the bloody cake? Then you’re damn well gonna work for it just like us poor PvE-ers, you do that and maybe, just maybe, we’ll let you have a bite…;)

You should not be rewarded for not taking part in that part of the game and thus shouldn't be getting gear from it.

While on the surface this looks reasonable there’s a fatal flaw that is best summed up by George Owell’s “All pigs are equal but some pigs are more equal than others” In this case the PvP-ers would be more equal since they would have access to both the PvP and the PvE rewards and would therefore get a bigger piece of the pie. You could, of course, create separate rewards for PvP and PvE but to balance it out you would then have to block PvE access to PvPers to make sure they don’t still have it both ways…

You want your cake and eat it too? Fine we’ll share you can have 50% and I’ll have the rest. You think you’re entitled to 60%? Then prove to me you deserve it…

On a side note if the honour points are here to stay and are meant to be PvP only then maybe the kitin observers could hand out PvE rewards to balance things out a bit ( 55% vs 45%?) New crafting plans would be nice preferably armour that give 0 protection against other player but works great against mobs and weapons that only damage mobs but make players giggle…

[riveit]

AO and WoW are games that have taken camping and gear grind to great heights so if that’s what you want there’s a place for you.

I have to disagree with you here. WoW has very little camping of valuables - primarily because the good stuff is in instances or bought with honor or reputation. In contrast, Ryzom has a terrible problem with boss camping and boss stealing. The best "phat loot" in Ryzom generally goes to the best campers and occasionally the most ruthless ones. The boss pop system in Ryzom really needs to be changed (unless they have done that recently and I am unaware of it).

Amazingly the attraction of Phat Lewt is such that everybody has to have it resulting in everybody, except those who either don’t care or lack the skill/right friends, looking the same.

Ryzom avoids that uniformity of look because of its versatile crafting and player customization of gear - not because it has a better looting system.

While on the surface this looks reasonable there’s a fatal flaw that is best summed up by George Owell’s “All pigs are equal but some pigs are more equal than others” In this case the PvP-ers would be more equal since they would have access to both the PvP and the PvE rewards and would therefore get a bigger piece of the pie. You could, of course, create separate rewards for PvP and PvE but to balance it out you would then have to block PvE access to PvPers to make sure they don’t still have it both ways…

Your argument is one-sided. PvEers may choose to PvP also. I have known many PvPers that refused to PvE, such as arena players who couldn't be bothered to go into a raid, grind rep, grind gold, etc. or Ryzom PvPers who refuse to dig mats. It would be unfair to 'block PvE access to PvPers'. However they must be required to actually do the PvEing rather than have the advantages simply handed to them.

[michielb]

I have to disagree with you here. WoW has very little camping of valuables - primarily because the good stuff is in instances or bought with honor or reputation.

WoW have the gear grind, AO is (or was when I left) a campfest.

Ryzom avoids that uniformity of look because of its versatile crafting and player customization of gear - not because it has a better looting system.

There is no better looting system once you introduce Phat Lewt everything goes to hell (see the boos mats in Ryzom)

Your argument is one-sided. PvEers may choose to PvP also. I have known many PvPers that refused to PvE, such as arena players who couldn't be bothered to go into a raid, grind rep, grind gold, etc. or Ryzom PvPers who refuse to dig mats. It would be unfair to 'block PvE access to PvPers'. However they must be required to actually do the PvEing rather than have the advantages simply handed to them.

Now you try to cover all your bases by typing an epic post and you get this...

All I'm saying is, have been saying all this time, don't add "content" aimed singly at one type of gameplay. Gear should be for everyone and not exclusively for PvPers. The bit about blocking PvE access to PvPers I added to illustrate my point becuase in that situation PvPers would have to endure what PvE-ers have allready gotten used to which is watching others get the shinies while being left empty handed.

Do NOT twist my words into something I never said!

I'm happy to share the goods I just don't see why PvPers are more deserving of rewards than PvE-er.