Honor (Honour) Points

[michielb]

fixed your typo

You mean to tell me there's no honour in PvP?

Surely PvP in PR doesn't reward honour points, as it is GvG, not FvF?

I wouldn't know as I only go down there to dig and with the non-PvP area's overrun with kp's I end up in the PvP arena's...

[jared96]

So how would a PVE-er go about acquiring honour points?

Well, when first implemented for example (temple building), if you weren't interested in PvP you had two choices:

1. Dig....of course PvP'ers still got honor points for killing you so thsi was soemtimes frustrating for some.

2. You could craft .... essentially build the temple.

Right now, peeps wishing access to the goodies are just standing in front of each other, usually nekid so they don't wear out their stuff, taking turns bashing each others heads in. People have actually complained to their GL's and HO's objecting saying "Hey, you aren't allowed to do that, you guys are suppossed to be PvE'ers".

I have no problem with any form of consensual PvP. If it's non consensual, than for myself, I just choose not to participate. Why anyone would care what happens between "two consending adults" when it doens't involve them is what I have trouble fathoming.

[michielb]

Well, when first implemented for example (temple building), if you weren't interested in PvP you had two choices:

1. Dig....of course PvP'ers still got honor points for killing you so thsi was soemtimes frustrating for some.

2. You could craft .... essentially build the temple.

Right now, peeps wishing access to the goodies are just standing in front of each other, usually nekid so they don't wear out their stuff, taking turns bashing each others heads in. People have actually complained to their GL's and HO's objecting saying "Hey, you aren't allowed to do that, you guys are suppossed to be PvE'ers".

I have no problem with any form of consensual PvP. If it's non consensual, than for myself, I just choose not to participate. Why anyone would care what happens between "two consending adults" when it doens't involve them is what I have trouble fathoming.

I know how you got them during ep2, I still have plenty left I got from digging and crafting I did back then. What I wanted to know was how to get them now and bashing someone over the head just to get the silly points, consensual or not, is pretty pointless (pun intended) Actually I lie, I didn't need to ask, I knew PvP was the only way to get them now. Which was the point I was trying to make...

[totnkopf]

All I can say is: I hope this doesn't end in the addition of "epics" locked away behind PvP Honour points like in the game we all love to hate...

Why not? If the items that you could gain from the honor points were centered around PvP, I see no issue with it. As it stands now, the rich are the ones who win at pvp since they're the ones who can afford to grind away thousands of mats to get the best boosted equipment (usually the older players since they have the mats and the connections to get the gear. It also makes pvp frustrating for those who are new to the game). Why not instead have gear that centers around PvP (resists on armor or reduced damage taken from homins for example) and have it actually earned through PvP.
With the PvP content being limited to specific areas, having gear that was centered around pvp wouldn't radically change the game either. If you had reduced damage from homins on pieces of armor, you'd make it so those that pvp'd a ton would be rewarded with gear that centers around their play style, but wouldn't give them an overly large advantage in OP wars.

But the points aren't that big of an issue. PvP in this game is so broken its funny. First off, the majority of the players hate to pvp or limit it to only OP wars. As a result, you get the same 3 people nuking each other all the time as they're the only ones who really like to PvP. Do you honestly think that two people taking turns killing each other every 5 mins would be the quickest way to gain points if there was PvP constantly going on elsewhere?
Secondly, unless you're willing to put in millions in dappers and spend years getting the best mats in game, the fights are limited to 3-4 nukes and the person with the least amount of latency usually wins. There is little to no skill involved for the most part and seems to center around button mashing. And when it comes to group pvp... well, the group that has more people healing will win. There is no real strategy involved for any fight... its just run towards the other team and start nuking at the healers and hope you get lucky. To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, take a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7duX4QpVaAQ ... Yea, yea... its WoW, but guess what... they have a lot of things going in the right direction (not perfect by any means, but they're moving in the right direction). Can you honestly say that you've every seen something like that happen in Ryzom? I know I haven't and I pvp'd a ton (goes with the Infinity tag). We don't have classes in Ryzom, but even with the roles people pick for what little pvp occurs, there aren't any real changes... its just a different button mashed.
Basically, in order to pvp to actually survive and be really enjoyable in regards to long term, there have to be some major changes done. I don't have the answers as to what needs to be changed, but its pretty obvious that what Ryzom has now doesn't work.


In regards to the picks, they should be removed from being purchased with honor points. I think they should be purchased with dappers, but only once you have your faction fame to a certain level (say 80 or higher and you can buy them). Gives the non-pvpers the ability to gain them, but makes them have to earn them.

EDIT: I realize that most of you won't have any idea was to what they are talking about on the YouTube vid, but names of abilities set aside, I think you can agree there is a great deal of strategy and team work going on and that the pvp that is occuring is on a completely different level of complexity than Ryzoms.

[michielb]

Why not?

Because I don't care much for PvP and would hate to see allkinds of shinies introduced to the game I can only get by doing things I'd rather not be doing...

If the items that you could gain from the honor points were centered around PvP, I see no issue with it. As it stands now, the rich are the ones who win at pvp

Not sure what you mean by this, rich in terms of dappers or in terms of gear? I rarely PvP but I have plenty of dappers and gear-wise I'm doing ok as well. As to grinding away thousands of mats I do that almost every day, not to get boosted equipment but merly to level the various crafting trees.

The currency in SoR isn't dappers or even mats if anything it's social skill; know the right people and the stuff you need will somehow find it's way to you. (provided of course they know and like you )

PvP in this game is so broken its funny.

Is it? It probably is though I've never bothered to find out. It doesn't look like PvP was part of the original design and was simply trown is as cheap "content" as it is in most (if not all) MMO's.

You want strategic PvP? If so then your best bet would be an FPS. Unless someone reinvents the MMO genre PvP will always be PvE against a distributed NoN-AI (and I use this because I'm not entirely convinced human player are really that much smarter (on average) than a decent AI)

Sure Wow did some fun PvP stuff with their latest expansion but vehicles, turrets and fortifications have been used in FPSes for ages and at least with those you don't need to grind levels and gear...

To get back to your question: "Why not?" Because I'd hate to see SoR turn into a gear oriented WoW clone just to satisfy to PvP crowd. Besides, why should the PvPers get all the rewards? Don't get me wrong if there was a way to gain honour points through PvE then I wouldn't have been in here arguing...

[totnkopf]

Not sure what you mean by this, rich in terms of dappers or in terms of gear? I rarely PvP but I have plenty of dappers and gear-wise I'm doing ok as well. As to grinding away thousands of mats I do that almost every day, not to get boosted equipment but merly to level the various crafting trees.

The best HA in game took Infinity over a year of mat collecting and boss camping to make. And we only had enough mats for 1.5 sets of armor. For those of you who remember Infinity, you know that we weren't lazy about boss hunting or showing up at season changes. So to be "the best" at pvp, you'd need to farm for years to obtain the best equipment to pvp... or you can buy the mats. Even if you know the right people, the mats always come at a high cost, usually in the form of grind mats.

Now assume a new player comes to Atys. They like the outpost idea and the idea of PR pvp. They don't like digging or crafting as they're too slow paced and and require too much time investment, so their dig levels are around q50, but their magic and melee levels are maxed. So now you have a player who can't produce grind mats and doesn't have the massive income of crafting/selling. How are they to obtain the gear? Dappers are worthless unless in the upper tens of millions and nearly all auctions for gear go for grind mats. That player has to find a guild thats willing to just give him the gear or, more likely, will get bored of Ryzom and go away. While I'm sure you're glad to see another pro-pvper leave, there aren't any new people arriving on Atys, so seeing them leave, regardless of pvp stance, is a bad thing.

The currency in SoR isn't dappers or even mats if anything it's social skill; know the right people and the stuff you need will somehow find it's way to you. (provided of course they know and like you )

I agree to an extent. So how can a new player jump into this game and dive into pvp when they don't know the 'right people'. Often its a matter of faction as well as some of the OP mats are often limited to one faction.

Is it? It probably is though I've never bothered to find out. It doesn't look like PvP was part of the original design and was simply trown is as cheap "content" as it is in most (if not all) MMO's.

PvP has always been part of Ryzom, just not the main focus. Even in the manual that shipped with the Ryzom discs there was mention of pvp and outposts. I realize that you don't enjoy PvP. I don't enjoy RPing, but I see the need to cater to those who do and I don't barge into the Thesos bar and start trying to talk down to them all. While you don't pvp, there are those who do and enjoy it, so why not have some content that's centered around them?

To get back to your question: "Why not?" Because I'd hate to see SoR turn into a gear oriented WoW clone just to satisfy to PvP crowd. Besides, why should the PvPers get all the rewards? Don't get me wrong if there was a way to gain honour points through PvE then I wouldn't have been in here arguing...

again, if the gear is centered around PvP (and only pvp) then it wouldn't impact the game and the only people who would have the desire to obtain the gear would be those that pvp. if you dig and craft and hate pvp, why would you want the pvp gear to begin with? If its simply to have the gear for the sake of having the gear, then I say you better start enjoying pvp as simply wanting something without the effort isn't cause for it to be given to you.

If you remove the PvE content from the honor points (picks for example) then theres no reason a PvE-er would even need to acquire the honor points. As i said before, I'm all for removing the picks from that system and making them earned through a different means. This argument has been done before during the Ep 1 event and was argued to death at the time. It basically boiled down to people wanted access to everything regardless of play style. And to that I say its a nice idea, but one thats almost impossible to implement without upsetting one side. Instead, give both sides their own stuff. You PvE? great, you can buy this pick or get this nifty little weapon that just glows and looks cool.
You PvP? great! heres some armor that allows you to take reduced damage from homins and some wepons that look nifty.
You want both the PvE and PvP gear? okay... hop to it and go do both, but it will require both PvE and PvP.

[michielb]

The best HA in game took Infinity over a year of mat collecting and boss camping to make.

If gear makes that big a difference and good gear is that rare I think there's something wrong. One of the reasons I left AO was that to be even halfway decent you needed to camp the boss spawns for a chance, a small chance, to get that piece of gear of this nano that your profession realy needed to be effective. Some people might find it fun to sit in one place watching grass grow for days only to find that the mob, once dead doesn't drop the phat lewt you were hoping for.

PvP has always been part of Ryzom, just not the main focus. Even in the manual that shipped with the Ryzom discs there was mention of pvp and outposts.

When I started the only way to PvP was to challenge someone to a duel so yes it was always a part of Ryzom, a very very small part. I can't find anything in the manual about outposts but that could just be because my french is horrible.

I realize that you don't enjoy PvP. I don't enjoy RPing, but I see the need to cater to those who do and I don't barge into the Thesos bar and start trying to talk down to them all.

It's not so much PvP I don't enjoy, I have a problem with a certain type of PvPer. A good fight is a good fight wether it be against mobs or against players but at least mobs don't "lol noob" you or sit on your corpse to add insult to injury. Not all PvPers resort to this kind of childish behavior but the ones that do are usually more noticable bacause of the amount of verbal abuse the spew out.

While you don't pvp, there are those who do and enjoy it, so why not have some content that's centered around them?

I accept that Ryzom has PvP and that it probably won't go away so the dev's should probably throw those who like it some cookies but they cannot have the pie! (cake, maybe but no pie, definately no pie)

But seriously there hasn't been anything added to the game that adds anything to PvE since the mekkies (I'm not counting that blasted wheel thingy...) so a lil'PvE love is in order here and if that includes stuff that can be used by PvPers as well than I'm all for it. As for content centered around PvP; that's called an arena and you allready have one. Besides a lot of PvPers allready think the world revolves around them no need to reinforce their beliefs

again, if the gear is centered around PvP (and only pvp) then it wouldn't impact the game and the only people who would have the desire to obtain the gear would be those that pvp. if you dig and craft and hate pvp, why would you want the pvp gear to begin with? If its simply to have the gear for the sake of having the gear, then I say you better start enjoying pvp as simply wanting something without the effort isn't cause for it to be given to you.

Unless new rewards have been added since last I checked the gear that can be bought with honour points works just as well for PvE as it does for PvP and as I recall correctly there's even some "wondermats" and cats there why only PvPer should have access to those is frankly beyond me and there are surely ways to find to make HP's available for PvEers (Temple maintenance has been suggested)

What you are suggesting is introducing new armour types aimed at and accesable only to PvPers like the "epics" in WoW I simply do not like that idea. Quite frankly I don't like the whole idea of honour points (why add an other grind to the game?) but if we have to have them I'd like everyone to have em and not just the PvPers who feel the need to show off their 733+ness.

While I'm sure you're glad to see another pro-pvper leave, there aren't any new people arriving on Atys, so seeing them leave, regardless of pvp stance, is a bad thing.

To survive Ryzom needs people to play so no, I don't like to see good people leave not even PvPers. That said, there is a certain type of people I do not wish to be around them leaving /shrug

[wardone]

i have recently returned to the game and have really enjoyed earning some honour points
when they were ingame before i hardly got the chance to earn enough points to buy anything until they were then patched out, so for me i am glad they are back

[tr808]

Thread full of whiners.

[totnkopf]

I accept that Ryzom has PvP and that it probably won't go away so the dev's should probably throw those who like it some cookies but they cannot have the pie! (cake, maybe but no pie, definately no pie)

the cake is a lie anyway....


I'm all for more PvE content and even think that it should take priority over pretty much anything else. I'm simply suggesting that while adding PvE content, they add some stuff for PvPers and have gear that is centered around PvP if they are going to have stuff purchased through pvp related currencies.

At this point anything new to the game would be welcome, PvE or PvP related... at least it would show that they're making some serious headway into improving the end-game aspect of Ryzom

Thread full of whiners.

Your lengthy post on the intricate relationships between pro-pvp and anti-pvpers was incredibly deep and took me several hours to simply break your argument down into its base points. I must commend you for having such a radical stance on the issue and for having the courage to come forth and state your opinion with such vigor. However in the future, could you limit your post length and word size to something a non-english major could easily read?