Play Ryzom for free one month more

[sidusar]

What sort of "things to do" did you have in mind? I hear lots of begging for "endgame" content but I still haven't seen any suggestions for what that might be, other than higher level areas to grind through in a couple of weeks to get to 300 and then start complaining again, or elaborations of the other things you've dismissed already such as PvP and boss hunting which already exist, but could be expanded and improved.

Indeed, this is something I see a lot too. A lot of people say they want something to do with their skills, but when asked what, they come up blank. I hardly think it's fair to demand from the devs that they implement "something that I'll like though I really have no clue what that could be".

In other MMOs, the options I've seen for 'endgame content' - what you do after you reach max level - have been limited to:

• Do more of whatever it was you did to reach the max level - usually this means questing. However since you're "already max level" and get "no more XP for it now", this is then usually considered a waste of time.
• Tackle special bosses or dungeons or other challenges that were specifically designed for max level characters. But this too gets boring after so many times, and suffers from the same problem of there not being any real rewards, since the character is already maxed.
• Continue improving your character in other ways, like leveling secondary skills, or obtaining better and better equipment. This basicly just starts a new phase of grinding, which eventually ends when you've truly maxed out the character in every way. And then you're back to not having anything left to do. Or, in some MMOs, it never ends but just gets more and more difficult, resulting an everlasting grind.
• PvP. This can keep some people entertained for all eternity, while other people get bored of it quickly. However, it always feels like a separate part of the game from the PvE, so if PvP is the only "endgame content", it makes me wonder why I had to gain all those levels through the PvE part first before being able to participate in the PvP part.

So what then? Personally all I can think of is Ryzom's original vision of 'events that can change the world'. Use that 250 fight skill to help take Dyron back from the Marauders, or to conquer Thesos for the Tryker. It offers no personal reward, but does give the satisfaction of knowing you made a difference. A bigger difference than you would've if you'd been only level 50. But meanwhile a level 50 can still contribute too, avoiding the "you have to be max level before you can join in the real content" stigma that plagues some other MMOs.

[seawe]

blaah re Events :

yep, there needs to be vcr to tape the shows and play them when theres time

yea

People say the game was not profitalble because it wasn't drawing players, but When ryzom went south the first time it was because the creditor/funder all of a sudden wanted their money back. People tend to forget that this was just after a huge influx of players appeared and Ryzom was at the top of the mmorpg charts, but before the money had any chance to accumulate. Seems to me ryzom failed with nevrax because the funders all of a sudden seeing lots of players wanted monies back and not because there weren't enough players.

More info on SW would be nice but if they need time to get their act together then thats OK for now, time goes quick when you have a huge game of code and legalites i bet, and slow for players digging in whatever games we play. So if they think they can pull it off more power to them so to speak. Its great to hear that they love the game ryzom though because that means alot.

As for ideas :
-new items to support a thriving game economy would be hugely better than new lands.
-changing harvest spots, mob locations,
-adding a new mob type would be more work but old players would be happy to have a new animal to test their strength against,
-tattoos are simple to implement.

[iceaxe68]

...all I can think of is Ryzom's original vision of 'events that can change the world'. Use that 250 fight skill to help take Dyron back from the Marauders, or to conquer Thesos for the Tryker. It offers no personal reward, but does give the satisfaction of knowing you made a difference. A bigger difference than you would've if you'd been only level 50. But meanwhile a level 50 can still contribute too...

After reading this, listening to and reading some other things, and just sitting and thinking about what I would want to do in Ryzom, I've come to the conclusion that you are absolutely right.

The story needs to move on. We've been stuck more or less at the same point in the story for the last year and a half to two years, like the same week playing over and over. (Ever see the movie "Groundhog's Day"?)

That's what I think SW should do with Ryzom. Get the story moving so we are focused on what is happening and how we can contribute or affect it, rather than chasing self-centered and shortsighted sensory gratification. (OK, that may be a bit over the top, but you see what I mean, I hope.)

It's the story that drew me in in the first place, and the hope of seeing it progress that excites my vision of the future. That's what Ryzom has over every other game I've ever tried, and can be the unique selling point once again.

[sidusar]

Pondering it over some more, I'm thinking the problems with the normal "endgame content" can pretty much be brought back into two:

1. No more rewards. The usual structure for RPG games is that overcoming challenges rewards you with means of making your character stronger. Once your character is maxed out, this structure breaks down. Thus, engame content needs to come up with new kinds of rewards. Unique titles, novelty items, your name on a statue, the satisfaction of knowing you made a difference, etc. etc.
   (Note: In a lot of MMOs, like WoW, once you reach max level you can continue to get stronger by gathering better equipment. Thus this is IMO not 'endgame', but just a 'second stage' of the grinding. You're still improving your character, only by getting equipment instead of levels now. Which brings me to the second point:
2. Splits the game into "before" and "after". If the endgame content is something that's pointless to participate in until you're max level, you basicly create two different games: one for the max-level players and one for the not-max-level players. This has the very real danger of the first part (the grind to max level) becoming just a boring and pointless means to the end of reaching the endgame content. Best example here are the WoW players that tell me the game doesn't really start until you're level 70. (Now 80, I guess.) Apparently, for them the grind through the levels is just an obstacle to get to the fun part. While ideally, the grind through the levels should be the fun part, otherwise why even have it in the game? Thus, endgame content needs to be open to all levels. Ofcourse, a level 250 player should still have an appropriate advantage over a level 200 player, otherwise we're still making the leveling part pointless.

Get the story moving so we are focused on what is happening and how we can contribute or affect it

Now, as for the 'events that can change the world', I've been thinking about how to implement those in practice and came to the following:

The events that progressed the story that we've had so far had two major flaws. Firstly, they only lasted for a few hours, maybe a day, or rarely a week, and then they were over. During the templebuilding event, everyone was digging or fighting in the Old Lands. During the Halloween invasion week, everyone was killing invasion kitin. Everybody's contributing to what's happening as long as the event lasts, but that's only a week or two, and after it's over there's several months of pointlessness again until the next such event. And secondly, our actions during those events didn't actually accomplish anything beyond the personal rewards we got. The temples would've been built at the end of the event anyway, and the kitin would've disappeared after the Halloween week anyway, no matter what we'd done. There's no real incentive to 'change the world'.

So I'd propose another way of moving the story forward. (To complement those events as above, not to replace them.) Set us a task, and don't move the story forward until it's completed. No matter how long it takes, no matter who completes it, the change in the world doesn't happen until it's completed. No time limit after which the devs do it for us, no making it easier if we don't succeed in a week - Any of that just totally nullifies the feeling that we are actually changing the world.

In it's simplest format, this would look something like: "A new tunnel between Zoraï and Fyros lands will be built once 10 million pieces of soil have been dug out." Or a new boss could be placed somewhere, guarded by hundreds of superminions that are impossible to seperate from it, but as soon as the boss is killed (just once) it disappears forever and affects some change in the world. A choice element could be incorporated by setting two related goals and whichever is completed first is the only one that takes effect. For example, I think a good concept for the first such task would be: "As soon as the whole server gathers X pieces of this special wood, and crafts Y construction elements out of it, a new outpost will be made active. The players get to choose which outpost by choosing where to turn in their materials."

A lot of fluff can be added to these to make them more fun, and the more the better ofcourse. But in essence they can be as simple as "gather/kill/craft X of Y amongst the whole server to built a guard tower here". The real importance is that the guard tower then actually stays there and does something afterwards, but not until we've completed the task.

It's okay if these things take months to complete - The goal isn't to give us something to do 24/7 for the week that it lasts, like the bigger events, but to give us some way we can contribute to advancing the story at any time we feel like doing something else than leveling. Ideally we'd have about a dozen of these goals 'open' at any time, with new ones being implemented as old ones are completed, so players can choose which one they'd like to work on. Would you like to help build that new Tryker town, or that new Fyros bridge, or to clear that canyon of cuttlers, or to push the Goo back from that ridge, or... etc. etc.

This got a bit longer than I intended, sorry, but I wanted to cover my bases.

[fadebait]

Pondering it over some more, I'm thinking the problems with the normal "endgame content" can pretty much be brought back into two:

1. No more rewards. The usual structure for RPG games is that overcoming challenges rewards you with means of making your character stronger. Once your character is maxed out, this structure breaks down. Thus, engame content needs to come up with new kinds of rewards. Unique titles, novelty items, your name on a statue, the satisfaction of knowing you made a difference, etc. etc.
   (Note: In a lot of MMOs, like WoW, once you reach max level you can continue to get stronger by gathering better equipment. Thus this is IMO not 'endgame', but just a 'second stage' of the grinding. You're still improving your character, only by getting equipment instead of levels now. Which brings me to the second point:
2. Splits the game into "before" and "after". If the endgame content is something that's pointless to participate in until you're max level, you basicly create two different games: one for the max-level players and one for the not-max-level players. This has the very real danger of the first part (the grind to max level) becoming just a boring and pointless means to the end of reaching the endgame content. Best example here are the WoW players that tell me the game doesn't really start until you're level 70. (Now 80, I guess.) Apparently, for them the grind through the levels is just an obstacle to get to the fun part. While ideally, the grind through the levels should be the fun part, otherwise why even have it in the game? Thus, endgame content needs to be open to all levels. Ofcourse, a level 250 player should still have an appropriate advantage over a level 200 player, otherwise we're still making the leveling part pointless.

While I see your logic I don't entirely agree with your conclusion. I agree that a loot-based item system would be a terrible thing for such a crafting-centric MMO as Ryzom - but that doesn't mean you can't have rewards that are actually useful. You can have rewards in the shape of crafting plans, unique materials, small improvements to your character (e.g. +50 sap points). In fact all these three rewards are already in the game, and don't seem to be causing any problems now. Things like titles are nice - but you only get a title once. You can do content multiple times to get many of the above rewards - with the possible exception of the character improvements.

I also am not overly keen on the 'single use' content - content that you miss out on if you are not able to play for a specific time period.

The NPC bosses are definitely a step in the right direction - but we need much more of this - of a higher difficulty but with a lower attendance requirement, ideally.

[iceaxe68]

While I see your logic I don't entirely agree with your conclusion. I agree that a loot-based item system would be a terrible thing for such a crafting-centric MMO as Ryzom - but that doesn't mean you can't have rewards that are actually useful. You can have rewards in the shape of crafting plans, unique materials, small improvements to your character (e.g. +50 sap points). In fact all these three rewards are already in the game, and don't seem to be causing any problems now. Things like titles are nice - but you only get a title once. You can do content multiple times to get many of the above rewards - with the possible exception of the character improvements.

I also am not overly keen on the 'single use' content - content that you miss out on if you are not able to play for a specific time period.

The NPC bosses are definitely a step in the right direction - but we need much more of this - of a higher difficulty but with a lower attendance requirement, ideally.

I think you make some good points, and adding the sort of things you describe could be a good thing. Those sorts of rewards are not a big motivator for me, but for others they would be. I don't think the suggestions are mutually exclusive. Either would be good, both would be even better.

Regarding "one time only" content, I have to say that I am entirely in favor of it, though not as the only sort of content. For a real world example, I didn't get to go to Woodstock but I'm glad it happened, and I enjoy reading about it and listening to the recordings. Similarly in Ryzom events, I wasn't around when the assassination happened, but I'm glad that sort of storyline event happened, and I got to read the reports of people who were there. If that sort of event happened more often, I still wouldn't make it to all of them, but I would make it to some of them, and I'd get to hear about the rest. The world would feel so much more alive, and I'd be motivated to log in and interact, to find out what was going on.

I also really like the idea of longer term group goals in which almost everyone could participate on some level.

Combine the current strengths of the game, the completion of long-promised features, the addition of more personal level activities, group goals, and a renewal of the living storyline, and I think Ryzom would soar in both popularity and profitability.

Now the hard part... making it happen. There is not a whole lot we can do as players. We've given our suggestions, ad nauseum. The development team knows what we want, unless they are stupid, and I don't believe they are. They've asked for our assistance in several areas, and I know the community has responded well to those requests.

At this point the only other things I can see to do are:
1. Help fund the process by subscribing when that becomes possible.
2. Keep Ryzom in the minds of people, by various means, but don't overpromote before it's really appropriate - and that time is not yet.
3. Refrain from creating negative publicity. That means not only avoiding unhelpful public complaint, but also being civil and positive in responses to critics. (Venting your frustrations is not of itself a bad thing, but throwing a tantrum in public IS. That applies to all parts of your life, not just gaming.)

[fadebait]

I
Regarding "one time only" content, I have to say that I am entirely in favor of it, though not as the only sort of content. For a real world example, I didn't get to go to Woodstock but I'm glad it happened, and I enjoy reading about it and listening to the recordings. Similarly in Ryzom events, I wasn't around when the assassination happened, but I'm glad that sort of storyline event happened, and I got to read the reports of people who were there. If that sort of event happened more often, I still wouldn't make it to all of them, but I would make it to some of them, and I'd get to hear about the rest. The world would feel so much more alive, and I'd be motivated to log in and interact, to find out what was going on.

I also really like the idea of longer term group goals in which almost everyone could participate on some level.

Yeah, I realise that I didn't say what I meant to say at all. I like the idea of events - but really not as the only type of content. Otherwise you get to the point where people only log in for the period of the event, because the rest of the time there is still nothing to do.
Longer term goals, eg the temple building, are good too.

[sx4rlet]

Actually, the ongoing story and the events that were part of that, was the reason that kept me playing Ryzom for a long time. Mostly because it got me curious about what was going to happen next. (And the 'Tear of the Kitin' event really rocked, only the end couldnt completely deliver)

Beside that, the other events, like the invasions, have been programmed, and must have taken quite some time from the devs to make. (Although I hope they still got the code somewhere, so they can be used again)
Expecting things like that again soon is just not realistic, I think. Although I wouldnt mind at all

[sidusar]

Yeah, I realise that I didn't say what I meant to say at all. I like the idea of events - but really not as the only type of content. Otherwise you get to the point where people only log in for the period of the event, because the rest of the time there is still nothing to do.
Longer term goals, eg the temple building, are good too.

Exactly. One-time events are definitely an important part of a living world, but by themself they're not enough. Unless you can chain them together without gaps (ie. start the next event immediately after the current event ends) which is just not realistic. The players need to have some way to contribute to advancing the story at any time they want to, not just when there happens to be an event going on.

The NPC bosses are definitely a step in the right direction - but we need much more of this - of a higher difficulty but with a lower attendance requirement, ideally.

The NPC bosses and kitin lairs, for all the ways they can be improved upon, do indeed make good endgame content in that you don't need to be level 250 to be useful.

Now the hard part... making it happen. There is not a whole lot we can do as players.

True, for those of us who are not NEL programmers or marketing gurus, and aren't already in one of Spiderweb's volunteer teams, there's not much we can do to directly contribute.

One thing everyone can do though, is help keep the place lively. Organize activities for other players to participate in, or if you don't have the time/resources for that, at least participate in those that other players organize. The more dead and stagnant the server, the less incentive people will have to log in anymore, and in the absence of official new content, it's all we can do.

[final66]

I'm waiting for the announcement that says "Billing is still being setup, Free till the end of December at the least..."

I am soooooo ready to start throwing my money at SW. I know they will be ready when they are ready but would quite like an update on the current situation now we are coming to the end of November.