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[flat75]

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Okay, you want consistent challenge. I'm sure it can be done. Now, please elabore how can you create consistent challenge from 100 players, all different skill levels within the same game.

Consistent challenge is:
Level 0-50 players working a blue zone;Level 50-100 players working a yellow zone and so on.....mixed team work it out. XP given is based upon the challenge faced. You wnat XP, you will find a challenge.
>> Maybe I was not clear enough - I did not mean in-game skills. Skills like setting-up stanzas, skills like sneaking.

Quote:
My observation about player behavior seems to indicate most players want lower challenge level than currently in game, and they most use those areas, where challenge level is below average, therefore making these areas crowded.

If you replace the word "challenging" with "convenient", I'd agree. But to an extent, a small extent, yes it's only human nature to pick the "shortest" or "easiest" route to a goal. [snip]
>> So why would it be such a grave sin to provide more areas for those players who follow their human nature?

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So all the challenge-seeking people do not favor digging grindmats in prime root, because it's ... too challenging? Wait, what?

What's so hard to understand ? Goal is to get crafting up. Crafting is not exciting, it's not challaneging, it's simply a grind. With the slow pace it has, no one wants to waste time. Here's my chocies:

a) Work 250 spot above ground. Can trek packers there and leave in relatively safe spot close to where you are digging. TP's reasonably close by. Can make it thru aggro untouched in excess of 90% of the time if paying attention and not rushing. Once at spot, can dig for reasonable length of time with only occassional interuption. Mat quality suitable for grinding. Hawkers readily available.
>>So you say it's absolutely acceptable that if you want to grind a craft skill up, (and you have only one type of digging high enough) there is only 1 or 2 spot on the entire world where you can do that. And you will be locked there for more than a month by practical reasons.

b) Work 250 spot in PR. Packer trek will take hours. Few safe spots to leave packers that are clsoe to safe zones. After TP'ing in, still usually a nice trek to spot ya wanna dig. Can make it thru aggro untouched maybe 30% of the time. Once at spot can dig for maybe 5-6 minutes (often less) before getting chased off. Mat quality above what needed for grinding so additional risk not warranted. Hawkers few and far between.
>>Oh.. excuse me, thats quite newsflash for me. I gained more than 20 lvls in PR in the past 4 days, digging about 15K mats, and was barely attacked at all, never got killed while on the digging. (previous trek for 3 TPs in LoC resulted 1 DP)
Followed my human nature, and picked somewhat safe positions. (SC for fiber, FD for bark and amber)
And you know what I noticed ... players. Other players dug next to me. Obviously I did a /who, and guess what... 100% (not 95, 99) of the names shown on the list dug the same safe places as I did.
But this thread was not about PR, so I'd like to get that subject out of conversation, even tho it's more or less the same situation as GoC. (not counting supmats)

Quote:
I, for one, do dig grindmats in PR in order to lvl PR forage.

I think the "for one" is kinda outta place. I am pretty darn sure that is the ONLY way to level PR forage and that is the way "every"one does it.
>> Hmm.. someone mentioned (was that you?) a "dig and discard" type of PR levelling....

Quote:
Now you argue against making Q250 regions easier, meanwhile admitting PR is so hostile, that people go there only for the mats. I .. am confused. Really.

Don't understand the confusion. What has PR's difficulty got to do with the other regions. If we give PR a 9 on a scale of one to 10 and the 250 regions a 4.....what's PR's 9 got to do with lowering the 250 regions from 4 to 2 ? If you want it to be easy, why not just use one of the power leveling services ? They will have you at 250 in everything in no time.
>> You are dead wrong on generalization of an entire region to a single number. Digging in goc, next to SS is pretty much 0 challenge.
Digging amber next to keepers is pretty much 0 challenge.
Problem is: Goc itself consist of about 2-3 low challenge level zones, accounting about 5% of the area.
Yet, this small area gives home to 95% of user activity in the region. My original post was about expanding this area, which is strongly opposed those who say challenge is needed.
No one, not even you have gave one...only one reason, which would explain that if challenge is so much needed, why most of the players avoid challenging areas, and why player activity is the highest in the less challenging areas.
Before we could really move on exchanging our points of view, please explain that to me.
And if you don't want to explain, please prove me that I'm wrong. That would require you to observe player behavior and location in GoC for at least a month, and come to the conclusion: most of the players to not dig in the areas I mentioned, they do dig elsewhere, deep in the GoC.
Logically if you want to contradict a statement like "most of the lemons are yellow" finding a red lemon is not enough. Nor proving lemons used to be green 100 years ago.


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No, one route are short, the next one is at least 3 times longer. At least. At which point it is not alternative at all. That's why noone uses it.
I did not requested equal routes. Only different routes which are real alternatives of each other.

That's a pretty good contradiction. You're not asking for "equal" routes" but you don't want routes that are "3 times as long". So I can only assume that there is some number between 1.0 and 3.0 that you find "appropriate". If I may ask, that is that number ? 2.0 times as long ? 1.5 times as long ?

I still don't understand the premise. When one sells his grind crafts to the npc is he saying "Gee I sure wish you made this with annette fiber instead of Dzao" ? We have three alternatives .... Dzao, Annette and Buo to grind away on LA..... each peep can pick which one is easiest for him / her....the npc doesn't care. Now if one wants annette for his / her own armor cause it has better stats, then the risk / reward equation comes in. If I wanted it for no discernable reason whatsoever, then peeps be saying something akin to my "weapon didn't have a point on it".
>>1.5 times as long sounds like almost acceptable. By your style of writing, you seem to be an intelligent person. Do you really think that for an 500 km car trip, there is an alternate route with 39,500 km in the exact opposite direction? The point is not about anate fiber or not. It's about you practically has no viable alternative. You have a technical alternative of the 39,500 km car trip. Noone uses that route. Especially not for daily commute.

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Okay, I admit I just dont know how much mats HQ jewels cost.

Go here:

http://ryzom.raum.com/?t=itemdb&s=clist&menu=0

Quote:
By the way, if you have archived 50 lvls since your skill is branched, you can grind HQ with armor, but only MQ in jewel. You are free to ignore simple examples you don't want to understand.

HQ patterns become available at level 150 across the board. Note also that jewel mats are always found together and only two different mats are required. WIth HA it's four mats and at best, no more than 2 of the 4 can be found near one another. It also takes 216 mats to make a full set of HA versus 100 for jools. It's an extra bunch of levels for the jooler but, most importantly, they are low levels and easily accomplished by standing at the raw mat dealer, even doing no math (equal amounts of two mats) and can be knocked off rather easily. When I came back from an extended vacation from game, and our guild had a new HO requirement that all officers be able to craft every item (one race) to level 100, I knocked off bringing all crafts up to 100 in a weekend just standing at the mat dealer and buying npc mats.....no bigga deal really. But you a free to ignore simple and easy solutions if you want to.
>> So you totally lost on how grinding jewels requires 3 times as much clicking using the same amount of mats.
I never ignore simple and easy solutions, but your example has no connection whatsoever to the subject: difference of convenience between crafting jewels and armor, which could be easily solved by the craft into .. sell all features.

[jared96]

>So you say it's absolutely acceptable that if you want to grind a craft skill up, (and you have only one type of digging high enough) there is only 1 or 2 spot on the entire world where you can do that.<

You are playing different game than I am. Only 1 or 2 spots in the entire word ? And no I didn't say that, you said that.

http://ryzom.raum.com/?t=itemdb&s=craft ... &q=3&rid=1

According to the above:

Clip - I have 5 chocies for dug mats (sap) / 27 looted mats choices
Shell - I have 5 chocies for dug mats (wood) / 30 looted mats choices
Lining - I have 4 chocies for dug mats (resin) / 26 looted mats choices
Stuffing - I have 4 chocies for dug mats (oil) / 29 looted mats choices

In my world, 18 us a lot bigger than 1 or 2. Not to mention 112 loot choices.

Before you say HA is different, there's 6 kinds of amber and 4 kinds of seed. And 10 is still a lot bigger than 1 or 2. As is the 26 and 20 different looted mats.

And you will be locked there for more than a month by practical reasons.

If you dedicate some time to it almost every single night (assuming one has a job, family and social lives and doing some hunting and guild activities), digging and crafting say 2.5 - 3k mats a night, figure closer to 4-6 months (with cats for crafting) for jools or HA to go from 160-250.

>Oh.. excuse me, thats quite newsflash for me. I gained more than 20 lvls in PR in the past 4 days, digging about 15K mats, and was barely attacked at all, never got killed while on the digging.<

Newsflash: You missed the entire point. The point was to outline the two chocies and to make it readily apparent that one "choice" was a red herring. You go to PR to level PR digging. You don't go to PR to level crafting. You waste too much time.

One can certainly level PR dig for example at ToT TP digging mission mats or moon resin to level 200 w/o real risk. So if I wanna grind HA craft, resin easy. Now try and get the wood. Access to wood is thru mass of tyrnachas / najab and varynx patrol wood spot.

Above ground I have my packers and hawkers always nearby.

Above ground - dig 3k mats .... craft 3k mats or dig 10k mats and dump on hawker, retrieve and craft.
PR - dig 380 mats port back and forth.....dig 380 mats port back and forth

The point is it's a fool's choice if the goal is to level craft up as fast as possible and minimize the days spent doing dreary digging for no XP. Given this basis, would a reasonably intelligent person pick form column a or b

Column A----------------------------Column B
East Packer Trek---------------------Difficult packer trek
Lot of safe packer areas--------------Few Safe packer areas
Short / easy walks-------------------Longer / harder walks
Aggro level low-med-----------------Aggro level med - hi
Hawkers abundant-------------------Hawkers rare
Rare Aggro while digging--------------Frequent aggro while digging
Can kill any non boss mob solo--------Can kill few mobs solo in focus gear

Of course, some peeps just might wecome the challenge and are NOT interetsed in the fastest possible access to higher craft levels. The game gives them that choice. It also gives the many times easier choice of leveling craft with above ground mats.

You keep flip floppin trying to make both sides of the argument fit your PoV. First you argue that people will go to easy fiber spot instead of hard fiber spots because one is easier to get to. Given that mindset, what basis is there for an argument that these same peeps would go to PR to get a mat that they could much more easily find above groind with less risk and less effort ? Lemme see, they need fiber should they:

a) Go to easy spot on GoC (Risk 2 / Time 2)
b) Go to hard spot in GoC (Risk 5 / Time 6)
c) Go to spot in PR (Risk 6 / Time 7)

Certainly you may be able to find "a" mat close to a TP w/ much risk in PR. But assuming it's fiber, is it "THE" fiber you were complaining wasn't easy in GoC ? And if it's fiber you want for LA craft, ya still need 3 other mats. Are those 3 other mats sitting in easy to get to / unrisky areas too ?

Using your own arguments, if people could just as easily level craft with PR mats, why does no one do it ? Cause it's easier with region mats. Now people certainly do use grind PR mats to level craft. But here's pretty much how it works most times.

1. Peep finishes above ground dig but let's say HA craft is only at level 150. Hates digging for no XP so begins PR dig seriously.

2. Can't use level 60-80, or whatever level he is, mats for his 150 craft so goes to nice safe spot and does "dig and drop thing".

3. Gets PR dig up to 150 and starts using 160 dug mats for crafting.

4. PR dig soon gets far past craft until peep reaches 250 PR while craft is still at 200.

Now what does this crafter do at this point ? Column A or Column B ?

-Is he going to waste time tping back and forth every bag load ?
-Let's say if 2 spots are easy to get to and without interruptions, what about the3rd and 4th ? Is it easier overall to get to all 4 spots above ground or below ?
-Is he going to do without the advantage of packers and hawkers ?
-Does the fact that he can kill just about any 250 non boss above ground solo and can kill few 250 mobs below ground enter into equation ?

I went from level 200-250 in 6 craft skill trees over 4+ months using above ground mats while:
a) maybe 4 times chased off source by aggro (dragged by peeps each time)
b) was killed 2 of those times and rez'd by peeps nearby
c) maybe being hit 6-8 times while traveling to my spots.
d) I killed the mobs in each of the other instances as well as dozens of "preventative" kills such as when a herb dragged an aggro into area and I knew it was gonna try and eat me after it was done with herb.

In PR:

a) acess to junk wood and junk resin was very dangerous requiring me to speed thru area and "lose aggro" more often than not. Once there only bothered by "dragged" aggro. However could rarely kill anything solo
b) acces to oil and sap was easy but expect to be chased off once a bag for sap and once a prospect for oil. No shot at killing varynx solo in focus gear.

Again, if you're saying no peep will bother to go get the other fibers in GoC because one is very easy, why would these same people go to PR to get it when as you said, it's so easy to get at that spot in GoC ?

Now the above steps aren't everyone's path....I have known a few peeps who ran off to PR as soon as they got to 150 and were able to buy PR specialization. I know others who didn't bother getting PR spec and mastered PR before they mastered any region. But every one of them mastered region dig before they finished mastering their armor or jool crafts because grinding craft with PR mats is just too much of a hassle. There';s prolly a few who don't fit that mold, but again, we are still talking about what "most people do" right ?

[iwojimmy]

Hadnt wanted to get involved in this again, but theres a couple of points I feel need to be raised.
Hawkers. Selling stuff to hawkers you can retreive it from the normal merchants in that land.... So how would you retreive stuff from PR hawkers (or Nexus)?
2nd Digging skill outstripping crafting. Myself, I am levelling 2 secondary dig skills together, so I keep the mats produced relevant to my craft skill, still get xp from digging, and dont have to risk the worst bits of PR for particular components. Of course this means my PR dig progresses more slowly, which is bad, but overall I just arent in that much of a hurry.

[flat75]

Quote:
>So you say it's absolutely acceptable that if you want to grind a craft skill up, (and you have only one type of digging high enough) there is only 1 or 2 spot on the entire world where you can do that.<

You are playing different game than I am. Only 1 or 2 spots in the entire word ? And no I didn't say that, you said that.

http://ryzom.raum.com/?t=itemdb&s=cr...m=83&q=3&rid=1

According to the above:

Clip - I have 5 chocies for dug mats (sap) / 27 looted mats choices
Shell - I have 5 chocies for dug mats (wood) / 30 looted mats choices
Lining - I have 4 chocies for dug mats (resin) / 26 looted mats choices
Stuffing - I have 4 chocies for dug mats (oil) / 29 looted mats choices

In my world, 18 us a lot bigger than 1 or 2. Not to mention 112 loot choices.

Before you say HA is different, there's 6 kinds of amber and 4 kinds of seed. And 10 is still a lot bigger than 1 or 2. As is the 26 and 20 different looted mats.
>> Okay, You seem to actively trying not to understand my point. This sentence followed by this: "And you will be locked there for more than a month by practical reasons."
You say it's not true. Okay, here I give you a chance to prove your word.
Grab a buddy, and lets have a GoC dig contest. Lets say, who can dig more mats in 2 hours. You can dig only anate fiber (which you count as a valid alternative), and I can dig whatever fiber I want.
You are a blind zealot if you fail to understand, that some choices are so unpractical, that are almost never used by players. You have a chance to prove that I am wrong, with actions instead of words. Are you up for the challange?
Or better yet: you said there are plenty of lootable mats. So you go hunting with a friend for 2 hours I dig two hours, and then we compare the mats gained.
By this answer you only proved that you don't understand that if you wish to archive a certain crafting skill, some choices DO NOT EXISTS, if you want to progress in the above-mentioned skill.
About looting: I killed a hell lot of najabs, they drop 3 types out of 4 MA/HA mats. The time required to obtain the same amount of mats by hunting them, can not be compared to digging.
I personally have never heard someone going to hunt just for the grindmats. (of course mats gained by hunting for xp used up in crafting regurarly)
Are you willing to take any of these challenges to prove yourself?

Quote:
And you will be locked there for more than a month by practical reasons.

If you dedicate some time to it almost every single night (assuming one has a job, family and social lives and doing some hunting and guild activities), digging and crafting say 2.5 - 3k mats a night, figure closer to 4-6 months (with cats for crafting) for jools or HA to go from 160-250.
>> What? It take me 4 weeks to grind up my MA from 100/100/100/100/
200 to 190/190/190/210/250. And I have job and familiy and social life too.
And that was with small amount of cats. Of course, if you really use the methods you are talking about, it can take 10 times as longer.
If you try to grind up your craft from hunting alone, it may take 2 or more years, but this is quite irrevelant.
Just because you don't know how this can be done properly does not mean it can't be done.

Quote:
>Oh.. excuse me, thats quite newsflash for me. I gained more than 20 lvls in PR in the past 4 days, digging about 15K mats, and was barely attacked at all, never got killed while on the digging.<

Newsflash: You missed the entire point. The point was to outline the two chocies and to make it readily apparent that one "choice" was a red herring. You go to PR to level PR digging. You don't go to PR to level crafting. You waste too much time.
>>Oh, no, I really do this to lvl crafting. My Amp craft went from 95 to 140 without cats. In 4 days. I do dig PR to lvl PR AND crafting at the same time.

One can certainly level PR dig for example at ToT TP digging mission mats or moon resin to level 200 w/o real risk. So if I wanna grind HA craft, resin easy. Now try and get the wood. Access to wood is thru mass of tyrnachas / najab and varynx patrol wood spot.
>>You probably don't know the Tama wood spots near KoD (No aggro Q200, Sup, Excel too), the Katchine wood near EF (Not only no aggro, but no creatures around Q200 i think, Sup Excel too), the underground ULTRASAFE Wood spot at LC (Q250).
It's really a shame that I have to tell you about the existance of these spots for a player who have been everywhere at least twice, who have explored every inch of Atys.

Above ground I have my packers and hawkers always nearby.

Above ground - dig 3k mats .... craft 3k mats or dig 10k mats and dump on hawker, retrieve and craft.
PR - dig 380 mats port back and forth.....dig 380 mats port back and forth

The point is it's a fool's choice if the goal is to level craft up as fast as possible and minimize the days spent doing dreary digging for no XP. Given this basis, would a reasonably intelligent person pick form column a or b

Column A----------------------------Column B
East Packer Trek---------------------Difficult packer trek
Lot of safe packer areas--------------Few Safe packer areas
Short / easy walks-------------------Longer / harder walks
Aggro level low-med-----------------Aggro level med - hi
Hawkers abundant-------------------Hawkers rare
Rare Aggro while digging--------------Frequent aggro while digging
Can kill any non boss mob solo--------Can kill few mobs solo in focus gear
>>You forgot column C, not using packers/hawkers, dig near TP, and TP home when you are full, which IS a choice for a reasonably intelligent person.

Of course, some peeps just might wecome the challenge and are NOT interetsed in the fastest possible access to higher craft levels. The game gives them that choice. It also gives the many times easier choice of leveling craft with above ground mats.
>> Yes, thats true. The problem is, these folks have LOTS of choices to make, unlike the others.

You keep flip floppin trying to make both sides of the argument fit your PoV. First you argue that people will go to easy fiber spot instead of hard fiber spots because one is easier to get to. Given that mindset, what basis is there for an argument that these same peeps would go to PR to get a mat that they could much more easily find above groind with less risk and less effort ? Lemme see, they need fiber should they:

a) Go to easy spot on GoC (Risk 2 / Time 2)
b) Go to hard spot in GoC (Risk 5 / Time 6)
c) Go to spot in PR (Risk 6 / Time 7)
>>No, you are dead wrong on this one. There are places in PR where risk/time is 0/0. And these are the points where I have ever met others on PR digging, not counting the excel/sup points. I even LISTED them. Why is so hard to understand that?

Certainly you may be able to find "a" mat close to a TP w/ much risk in PR. But assuming it's fiber, is it "THE" fiber you were complaining wasn't easy in GoC ? And if it's fiber you want for LA craft, ya still need 3 other mats. Are those 3 other mats sitting in easy to get to / unrisky areas too ?
>> You are really weak in comprehension of this subject. I told you someone wishing to lvl LA in GoC does not have practical alternatives: they will dig that kind of fiber which is easy to access. Right there that is Bou fiber, next to SS.
The problem is lack of equivalent alternatives: you have to dig the same spot for weeks. In reality there are alternatives: if you chose those, your progress in your skill will be quartered. NOONE (I know or met) OPTS FOR THAT.

Using your own arguments, if people could just as easily level craft with PR mats, why does no one do it ? Cause it's easier with region mats. Now people certainly do use grind PR mats to level craft. But here's pretty much how it works most times.
>>I told you I do it. I told you I met at least 5 people doing it too. Who is the "noone" in this case?

1. Peep finishes above ground dig but let's say HA craft is only at level 150. Hates digging for no XP so begins PR dig seriously.

2. Can't use level 60-80, or whatever level he is, mats for his 150 craft so goes to nice safe spot and does "dig and drop thing".

3. Gets PR dig up to 150 and starts using 160 dug mats for crafting.

4. PR dig soon gets far past craft until peep reaches 250 PR while craft is still at 200.

Now what does this crafter do at this point ? Column A or Column B ?

-Is he going to waste time tping back and forth every bag load ?
-Let's say if 2 spots are easy to get to and without interruptions, what about the3rd and 4th ? Is it easier overall to get to all 4 spots above ground or below ?
-Is he going to do without the advantage of packers and hawkers ?
-Does the fact that he can kill just about any 250 non boss above ground solo and can kill few 250 mobs below ground enter into equation ?

I went from level 200-250 in 6 craft skill trees over 4+ months using above ground mats while:
a) maybe 4 times chased off source by aggro (dragged by peeps each time)
b) was killed 2 of those times and rez'd by peeps nearby
c) maybe being hit 6-8 times while traveling to my spots.
d) I killed the mobs in each of the other instances as well as dozens of "preventative" kills such as when a herb dragged an aggro into area and I knew it was gonna try and eat me after it was done with herb.

In PR:

a) acess to junk wood and junk resin was very dangerous requiring me to speed thru area and "lose aggro" more often than not. Once there only bothered by "dragged" aggro. However could rarely kill anything solo
b) acces to oil and sap was easy but expect to be chased off once a bag for sap and once a prospect for oil. No shot at killing varynx solo in focus gear.

Again, if you're saying no peep will bother to go get the other fibers in GoC because one is very easy, why would these same people go to PR to get it when as you said, it's so easy to get at that spot in GoC ?

Now the above steps aren't everyone's path....I have known a few peeps who ran off to PR as soon as they got to 150 and were able to buy PR specialization. I know others who didn't bother getting PR spec and mastered PR before they mastered any region. But every one of them mastered region dig before they finished mastering their armor or jool crafts because grinding craft with PR mats is just too much of a hassle. There';s prolly a few who don't fit that mold, but again, we are still talking about what "most people do" right ?

>>Yes, apparently most people know PR better then you. There are countless safe spots in PR. I have met players there. I've seen them digging Q250 mats next to me. Unless all of them had about 240 PR, they were digging grindmats.
One HUGE adventage of digging grindmats in PR.... when weather changes, and you can't dig choice, you can visit your favorite nearby excel/sup spots.
Once, while digging resing near KoD, I had a lucky time, sups and excels popped after each other.. I went for grindmats and PR lvling, I came back with a bag full of (low lvl) sups and excels.
And I dare you again: if you don't believe me, lets meet in-game, and I'll show you some safe spots, which are much safer than "non-safe" spots in GoC.
(and let me tell you: I do not know PR - I begun exploring it about a month ago)
And thank you for not answering to this:

Before we could really move on exchanging our points of view, please explain that to me.
And if you don't want to explain, please prove me that I'm wrong. That would require you to observe player behavior and location in GoC for at least a month, and come to the conclusion: most of the players to not dig in the areas I mentioned, they do dig elsewhere, deep in the GoC.
Logically if you want to contradict a statement like "most of the lemons are yellow" finding a red lemon is not enough. Nor proving lemons used to be green 100 years ago.

[flat75]

Hadnt wanted to get involved in this again, but theres a couple of points I feel need to be raised.

Hawkers. Selling stuff to hawkers you can retreive it from the normal merchants in that land.... So how would you retreive stuff from PR hawkers (or Nexus)?
>>Interesting question, I have never used PR or nexus hawker.

2nd Digging skill outstripping crafting. Myself, I am levelling 2 secondary dig skills together, so I keep the mats produced relevant to my craft skill, still get xp from digging, and dont have to risk the worst bits of PR for particular components. Of course this means my PR dig progresses more slowly, which is bad, but overall I just arent in that much of a hurry.

>>I chose a low level crafting, which I am interested in, and lvl that with mats dug on PR. It's really matter of taste.

[jared96]

OK can you first figure out how to follow the forum conventions and use the quote tool and dump this color business ?

>are a blind zealot if you fail to understand<

Ah name calling, the last resort of a lost argument.

Grab a buddy, and lets have a GoC dig contest. Lets say, who can dig more mats in 2 hours. You can dig only anate fiber (which you count as a valid alternative), and I can dig whatever fiber I want.

I give up, you win. Since my my desert and PR digs are 250 and others in 50's, guess I won't be digging much in GoC.

Tell ya what, I can stand on any dig spot in Fyros and yank 85-90 mats per prospect w/ no time bonus. I can dig that spot all day long w/o moving....it will never go dry. So while you are out traveling around from spot to spot, I'm diggin, I'm only diggin. Let's see who wins the race:

a) I go to closest spot, dig all day long w/o interuption except to tp back to dump mats and get back to the close spot.

b) You go dig a close spot, then a medium far spot, then a real far spot and you gonna keep up with me ? By the time you recah that far spot, I been diggin 15 minutes....how does your math work ?

About looting: I killed a hell lot of najabs, they drop 3 types out of 4 MA/HA mats. The time required to obtain the same amount of mats by hunting them, can not be compared to digging.

Of course, here's a test. It's not hard. If you could get the same amount and quality of mats by looting as you did digging, how many people would bore themelves to death digging ?

>What? It take me 4 weeks to grind up my MA from 100/100/100/100/ 200 to 190/190/190/210/250. And I have job and familiy and social life too. And that was with small amount of cats.<

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but levels get harder as you get higher. Ya can do 250 levels in jools (gee ya dropped that argument didn't ya) in 5 hours. But not when you in the 230+ range. When ya can't overcraft by 50 levels anymore talk to me about how long it takes. Oh and when you have mastered 6 craft skills tell me how long it takes.

You forgot column C, not using packers/hawkers, dig near TP, and TP home when you are full, which IS a choice for a reasonably intelligent person.[/QUOTE]

You do like to contradict yaself. First ya complain ya have to go too far from TP cause not every mat is the same distance, and now you always diggin near TP, what way is it ?

Ok and what am I doing while you are TP'ing back and forth all day ? I'm diggin. Who has more mats at end of day ? Who got more XP ? Who crafted more items ? I don't have to stop to craft until I have 3k mats. You running home every 380 mats or so depending on what ya carry with ya.

OK, everyone who is 250 in PR and 250 in an above ground region raise their hand if you go to PR to get grind mats ..... about the same amount raising hands as peeps grinding in aen armor.

You are really weak in comprehension of this subject. I told you someone wishing to lvl LA in GoC does not have practical alternatives: they will dig that kind of fiber which is easy to access. Right there that is Bou fiber, next to SS. he problem is lack of equivalent alternatives: you have to dig the same spot for weeks. In reality there are alternatives: if you chose those, your progress in your skill will be quartered. NOONE (I know or met) OPTS FOR THAT.

Bingo. They will dig what's easy cause there's no reason to do anything else. That's cause most people are sane. If Buo fiber is easy to get, they gonna dig and grind craft on buo fiber, so what ? Inefficieny is doing more work than you have to in order to accomplish a goal. In your world a Porsche should cost the same as a Yugo. If ya want to be able to drive around, the easiest way for you do do so will be to buy a cheap car. That will cost you the least amount of working hours. If you want something better, you work more hours.

I told you I do it. I told you I met at least 5 people doing it too. Who is the "noone" in this case?

More misrepresentation. You don't do it cause you can't do it. When you are 250 dig then you will be in a position to fit the scenario. If you are 250 dig and 250 in region you have two choices to grind craft:

a) dig above ground
b) dig below ground at a much slower yield.

If anyone is doing b thinking they are proceeding in the most efficient manner, their gray matter certainly isn't choice or above.

There are countless safe spots in PR. I have met players there. I've seen them digging Q250 mats next to me. Unless all of them had about 240 PR, they were digging grindmats.

You can't count very high. For every safe spot in 250PR, there's a mich larger / safer one above ground.

One HUGE adventage of digging grindmats in PR.... when weather changes, and you can't dig choice, you can visit your favorite nearby excel/sup spots.

Very huge...let's do the math again:

1. Let's play a game....we both start in our capital cities. I will tp and "tag" one of each of the 4 req'd 250 HA (shell/resin/oil/sap) above ground spots. You tp to PR and tag one of each of the 4 req'd (shell/resin/oil/sap) 250 HA dig spots. Who gets done first ? I know I can hit all 4 spots from the TP w/o speed running out....I only gotta go to 2 spots...oil and sap togetehr, wood and resin together....got those set up that way in PR where ya can pop both with same prospect ?
2. What are you using when you digging this choice "Choice only" or "up to supreme" ? Are you wrestling with conflicting weather, not in season, not found messages ?
3. When your choice dies, are you instantaneaously transported to this exe / sup spot or does it take time to get there ?
4. Are you rebuilding bricks from choice to exe to sup in order to maximize your draw ? Or just switching to a a new bar ?
5. Bag full, sorry...bet I dig 100 mats while you tp'ing back and forth to unload.
6. Guess what I am doing while you walking and tp'ing and playing with your bricks, I'm digging...I aint gotta move....I aint gotta dodge aggro.....

Yeah there's safe spots in 250 PR ...when ya get there. Dung and Motega very safe once ya get there....just gotta run thru kirosta, jugs, kincher, kipucka from FD ...or jugs and vorax from Sc.

I begun exploring it about a month ago)

Well start exploring the 250 zones and then tell me how navigating it is "just as safe" as above ground. I been down in PR all day today and had 3.5 million DP. First DP was just getting to that "safe" motega / dung spot on my way to where I needed to go. I don't ever die above ground unless it's a chat death where I was typing and didn't cp in time.....chat death is about as dangerous as it gets. Again, when ya have mastered PR and then have no real reason to go there other than to get quality mats, tell me how you continue to dig down there for grind mats.

[gillest]

So how would you retreive stuff from PR hawkers (or Nexus)?
>>Interesting question, I have never used PR or nexus hawker.

I would recommend not to use those, I made the try with Nexus Hawker, her ate 800 of my nodes, never got them back....
You can get mats u store at hawkers only in merchants of the same region..
No merchant in PR and Nexus, mats will disappear in the Matrix... (maybe Neo got them )

[flat75]

OK can you first figure out how to follow the forum conventions and use the quote tool and dump this color business ?
>>No, sorry I quite like it this way.

Ah name calling, the last resort of a lost argument.
>>No, that's an observation, with a condition... "if". If you call it a "name calling" that means you fullfill the condition in that statement.

Quote:
Grab a buddy, and lets have a GoC dig contest. Lets say, who can dig more mats in 2 hours. You can dig only anate fiber (which you count as a valid alternative), and I can dig whatever fiber I want.

I give up, you win. Since my my desert and PR digs are 250 and others in 50's, guess I won't be digging much in GoC.

Tell ya what, I can stand on any dig spot in Fyros and yank 85-90 mats per prospect w/ no time bonus. I can dig that spot all day long w/o moving....it will never go dry. So while you are out traveling around from spot to spot, I'm diggin, I'm only diggin. Let's see who wins the race:

a) I go to closest spot, dig all day long w/o interuption except to tp back to dump mats and get back to the close spot.

b) You go dig a close spot, then a medium far spot, then a real far spot and you gonna keep up with me ? By the time you recah that far spot, I been diggin 15 minutes....how does your math work ?
>> So all this time you were arguing about something you don't even know a thing about. Namely what is the current situation at GoC.
Well ... I don't have anything more to say about it.
Arguing at it's finest.

Quote:
About looting: I killed a hell lot of najabs, they drop 3 types out of 4 MA/HA mats. The time required to obtain the same amount of mats by hunting them, can not be compared to digging.


Of course, here's a test. It's not hard. If you could get the same amount and quality of mats by looting as you did digging, how many people would bore themelves to death digging ?
>>All those stupid people who want excel and supreme mats in larger quantities.
It was you or me, who told that looting is a viable alternative to digging?
Wait...

"Clip - I have 5 chocies for dug mats (sap) / 27 looted mats choices
Shell - I have 5 chocies for dug mats (wood) / 30 looted mats choices
Lining - I have 4 chocies for dug mats (resin) / 26 looted mats choices
Stuffing - I have 4 chocies for dug mats (oil) / 29 looted mats choices"

>>Oh, it was you. And now you again contradict yourself.

Quote:
>What? It take me 4 weeks to grind up my MA from 100/100/100/100/ 200 to 190/190/190/210/250. And I have job and familiy and social life too. And that was with small amount of cats.<


Hate to be the bearer of bad news but levels get harder as you get higher. Ya can do 250 levels in jools (gee ya dropped that argument didn't ya) in 5 hours. But not when you in the 230+ range. When ya can't overcraft by 50 levels anymore talk to me about how long it takes. Oh and when you have mastered 6 craft skills tell me how long it takes.
>>I will do it this week, I'll notify you of the results. (have you noticed that one of my skills whent from 200=>250, and since this was my first armorcraft, guess how much i could overcraft) I have not dropped jewelcrafting, you did...

"I'll ignore the inherent bias from comparing HQ MA and MQL jools...er why not both same Q so we talkin apples and apples ? But explain the part about how this is different:"
>>So you ignore my argument, and then later blame me for dropping it?


You do like to contradict yaself. First ya complain ya have to go too far from TP cause not every mat is the same distance, and now you always diggin near TP, what way is it ?
>>Please show me a quote where I said I ever go far from TP.
Maybe you have forgotten, what is this thread all about. Please read it again to refresh your memory.

Ok and what am I doing while you are TP'ing back and forth all day ? I'm diggin. Who has more mats at end of day ? Who got more XP ? Who crafted more items ? I don't have to stop to craft until I have 3k mats. You running home every 380 mats or so depending on what ya carry with ya.
>>Well, with every 800 mats, if the hawker is not in place.
Let me sum up the worst case scenario: TP 15 seconds, TP => stable 10 seconds, putting mats in: 5 seconds, TP back: 15 seconds. Run to digging place: (estimate) 40 seconds. 85 seconds every 800 mats. You said with your mektoubs you can collect 3000. Lets say that's approximately 4 times as my 800. can you trek your mektoubs to GoC from Yrk in 4*85 seconds?
Oh wait, you have never even been there, you don't know where to dig there, yet, you are arguing about it.

OK, everyone who is 250 in PR and 250 in an above ground region raise their hand if you go to PR to get grind mats ..... about the same amount raising hands as peeps grinding in aen armor.
>>Man, vitrually unlimited supplies of Bark are next to FD TP, absolutely safe. 30m from kara TP. What are you talking about?

Quote:
You are really weak in comprehension of this subject. I told you someone wishing to lvl LA in GoC does not have practical alternatives: they will dig that kind of fiber which is easy to access. Right there that is Bou fiber, next to SS. he problem is lack of equivalent alternatives: you have to dig the same spot for weeks. In reality there are alternatives: if you chose those, your progress in your skill will be quartered. NOONE (I know or met) OPTS FOR THAT.

Bingo. They will dig what's easy cause there's no reason to do anything else. That's cause most people are sane. If Buo fiber is easy to get, they gonna dig and grind craft on buo fiber, so what ? Inefficieny is doing more work than you have to in order to accomplish a goal. In your world a Porsche should cost the same as a Yugo. If ya want to be able to drive around, the easiest way for you do do so will be to buy a cheap car. That will cost you the least amount of working hours. If you want something better, you work more hours.
>> I beg your pardon? In your world, porsche cost 10,000 dappers, Yugo costs 100,000. Therefore, guess what, noone buys that Yugo. Everyone buys porsche (which, if you have lost in your own metaphor, is digging near TP, since its fast)
My entire thread was about giving players more choices then this two: A camarro SS, a pontiac firebird and some more alternatives then the porsche used by everyone. Guess you didn't get this one either.

Quote:
I told you I do it. I told you I met at least 5 people doing it too. Who is the "noone" in this case?

More misrepresentation. You don't do it cause you can't do it. When you are 250 dig then you will be in a position to fit the scenario. If you are 250 dig and 250 in region you have two choices to grind craft:

a) dig above ground
b) dig below ground at a much slower yield.

If anyone is doing b thinking they are proceeding in the most efficient manner, their gray matter certainly isn't choice or above.
>>I dare you again: I show you safe and easy spots in PR, you show me in GoC. If you happen to have master dig in both, certain crafts are WAY easier to grind from PR mats.
Oh wait, you don't even know GoC. Silly me.
I happen to know at least 3 person who digs PR for grindmats. (one of them has all regions maxed in dig)
Guess what: probably they dig PR for the reasons I mentioned earlier: sups and excels. When weather condition changes, and you can't dig choice grindmats, they go and dig all the excels and sups around.
That's something you can't do above ground.

Quote:
There are countless safe spots in PR. I have met players there. I've seen them digging Q250 mats next to me. Unless all of them had about 240 PR, they were digging grindmats.

You can't count very high. For every safe spot in 250PR, there's a mich larger / safer one above ground.
>>Yes you can. I have not seen such large fields aboveground than on PR.

Quote:
One HUGE adventage of digging grindmats in PR.... when weather changes, and you can't dig choice, you can visit your favorite nearby excel/sup spots.

Very huge...let's do the math again:

1. Let's play a game....we both start in our capital cities. I will tp and "tag" one of each of the 4 req'd 250 HA (shell/resin/oil/sap) above ground spots. You tp to PR and tag one of each of the 4 req'd (shell/resin/oil/sap) 250 HA dig spots. Who gets done first ? I know I can hit all 4 spots from the TP w/o speed running out....I only gotta go to 2 spots...oil and sap togetehr, wood and resin together....got those set up that way in PR where ya can pop both with same prospect ?
>>Lol no, I use mat spec stanzas (*looks surprised*) You won the tag. I dug over 600 excel mats yesterday on PR. (after server reboot and season change could have been 1000, but I had some obligations)

2. What are you using when you digging this choice "Choice only" or "up to supreme" ? Are you wrestling with conflicting weather, not in season, not found messages ?
>>Choice only. When I get weather message I use Up to supreme. Have you ever been digging in PR by the way, or you only know about this subject as about GoC?

3. When your choice dies, are you instantaneaously transported to this exe / sup spot or does it take time to get there ?
>>Sometimes they are on the same location, sometimes meters away, sometimes further.

4. Are you rebuilding bricks from choice to exe to sup in order to maximize your draw ? Or just switching to a a new bar ?
>>Honestly, I don't get this one, please elaborate.

5. Bag full, sorry...bet I dig 100 mats while you tp'ing back and forth to unload.
>>Sometimes my dig spot is 30m from TP. Gratz, you are heck of a digger if you dig 100 mats in 60 seconds.

6. Guess what I am doing while you walking and tp'ing and playing with your bricks, I'm digging...I aint gotta move....I aint gotta dodge aggro.....
>> What is "brick"? Really?

Yeah there's safe spots in 250 PR ...when ya get there. Dung and Motega very safe once ya get there....just gotta run thru kirosta, jugs, kincher, kipucka from FD ...or jugs and vorax from Sc.
>> I told you there are other... no wait. You are right. There are absolutely no other spots where you can dig these mats. Absolutely.

Quote:
I begun exploring it about a month ago)

Well start exploring the 250 zones and then tell me how navigating it is "just as safe" as above ground. I been down in PR all day today and had 3.5 million DP. First DP was just getting to that "safe" motega / dung spot on my way to where I needed to go. I don't ever die above ground unless it's a chat death where I was typing and didn't cp in time.....chat death is about as dangerous as it gets. Again, when ya have mastered PR and then have no real reason to go there other than to get quality mats, tell me how you continue to dig down there for grind mats.
>>Okay. Will send you a postcard when I'll have 250 pr from my favourite digspots. (I think I will do some screenshots hehe)
And I'm quite sure I'll dig there from some of my grindmats.


EDIT: PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING:
I have a feeling that you and I are locked in a pointless arguing, which has already moved far away from the original subject.

So, here is a brief attempt to get this conversation back to the road:
I told that Q250 zones should be made a bit easier, more accessible. Namely, in GoC, most of the player activity is centered around two smallish, safeish spots on the map. These are the spots reguararly harvested by players, while 95% of the are remains rarely used. I expressed my opinion about opening up these areas would give players more choices. More choices where to dig, more choices where to hunt.
Currently, most of the above-200 level hunting conducted in the void. Making other area similar to the void would greatly increase their usability.
Some argued against removing the challenge, or dumbing down the game. I tried to prove that challenge is a buttonpress away. Some tried to tell me to work on my levels, failing to understand that my levels are high enough for me to manage in GoC. (and even in PR)
But, in case you want to master a few crafting skills, you are practically doomed to either dig the same spot for weeks, or lose great deal of the efficiency of your grinding by seeking out alternate spots.
Because the usability and accessibility difference between the primary (in the frequently used zone) and the secondary (in the infrequently used zone) is just too great to serve as a real alternative.
I did not mention PR because even if similar issues are exists there, (having frequently used spots) there is the undeniable adventage of access to excel and supreme mats.
Therefore even if most parts of the PR is dangerous place to be, it is also REWARDING. And because of that, players use it, especially after season changes. So my opinion is: PR is good the way it is.
So my main argument was - before they create even more areas for those who wish to seek the danger and challenge, it would be wiser to unlock those areas, which are unused for practical reasons.
Create reason for the players to use those areas which are almost forgotten - I'm sure not only GoC have these issues, but that's the region I live in for more than a month now, that's where I see the same players digging the same spots day by day, just like me.
Of course you may tell that we should explore those areas - but it's inefficient, unrewarding task.

After all those arguments and counterarguments I still believe something should be done to remedy this situation.
Maybe they should modify the server program to poll player locations every five minutes or so - and they would aggregate this data to see "high activity" and "low activity" zones, and do something to extend areas which are frequently visited by players. Maybe lowering aggro levels. Maybe placing spots worth visiting. Maybe creating rewarding missions which require those areas to be visited.
SoR was advertised as a changing world. Since half a year I have not seen anything changing on it.
I say the first good step would be to create more areas "likeable", enjoyable ... used by players. It's much easier task then to create brand new areas, therefore could be done much sooner. Maybe the experience gained on the way could be used to create better new areas as well.

[flat75]

I would recommend not to use those, I made the try with Nexus Hawker, her ate 800 of my nodes, never got them back....
You can get mats u store at hawkers only in merchants of the same region..
No merchant in PR and Nexus, mats will disappear in the Matrix... (maybe Neo got them )

>>In that case either a merchant should be placed in each of these zones, or the hawkers should be removed - to prevent players from making this mistake.

[blaah]

>>In that case either a merchant should be placed in each of these zones, or the hawkers should be removed - to prevent players from making this mistake.

there should be no hawkers down in PR. Hawkers in Nexus are there for people who use them for what they were intended to. those few who get "burned" by them are useing hawkers for free mat teleport exploit.