Lets Sink that Dapper

[motan]

Increase Price of TP's -> no, will hurt newbies
Increase Price of Tools -> no, will hurt newbies
Decrease dapper's given by NPC for sale of item. -> no, will hurt newbies
Upkeep for Room -> yes, newbies do not *need* room
Upkeep for GH -> no, may hurt new guilds
Upkeep for packers -> no, will hurt newbies
NPC's sell higher quality mats (up to Q250) -> agree
NPC's sell higher grade armor (choice MQ) -> useless
Increase cost of making sap crystals -> agree, instant spells are too cheap
Buyable 'pretty' things for Room // GH -> agree, it's fluff but many players enjoy doing it
Bribes for TP's you're not supposed to be able to get -> no, the game is too easy as it is

[xfluffee]

Increasing the price of tools won't be quite so bad. Some tools are given for free on Silan and they're not sellable. (I think all tools needed in the Silan quests should be given for free by the NPC who is asking for the goods). Once you wear out the tools, you have (theoretically) earned enough money from crafting to easily buy more.

I would lump apartments and packers/mounts in the same category. If players don't need one, they don't need the other. But charging a recurring fee will hurt the infrequent players. If there were some way to charge based on use, then frequent players and infrequent players would be treated equally.

The best suggestion on this list, by far, is to make up to q250 mats (basic) available for sale. Second best is customization of apartments (and then allowing visitors), as well as customizing the guild halls (which was not mentioned).

[katriell]

I would lump apartments and packers/mounts in the same category. If players don't need one, they don't need the other.

Not really. An apartment is 2000 bulk, a packer is 500, a mount is a transportation medium with 100 bulk. A "keep it in the stable" packer is needed fairly soon.

[jared96]

counterquestion why you think economy is unstable ? and yes you are right don't have master craft/forage and thanks god/game mechanics it is not required. (no i don't hate crafting/foraging but atm i am enjoying other aspects of game and i would dislike the idea to be forced to)

AUCTION: One set of [insert whatever here]: Minimum bid [insert quantity of mats here]. In any real or fantasy world I can remember reading, playing , viewing, imagining , etc.... the local "currency" could buy just about anything. Not in Ryzom.

While I wouldn't want to see NPC stocked gear of significance, raw materials oughta be available. If I visit the 4 regions and buy every mat useable for whatever skill I am pursuing, I can craft them off in about 2 minutes.

Meanwhile I'm carrying around 300 million in useless dapper that my only use for is dropping on n00bs as they arrive from Silan.

[xfluffee]

In any real or fantasy world I can remember reading, playing , viewing, imagining , etc.... the local "currency" could buy just about anything. Not in Ryzom.

Yes and no.

The "currency" used in societies in exchange for goods has some intrinsic value. Whether that's because it is valuable, rare, or useful in and of itself, of simply because it's universally accepted as an exchange for goods or services. I've even seen one game that had no official currency. You decided what was valuable to you and to the society, and you traded with that. In essence, you could say that the playerbase created their own form of currency.

Dappers were created as an intended form of currency on Ryzom. But due to the game mechanics, it is not a valued commodity, as most people would prefer grind mats in exchange for goods or services. Only when provisioning goods and services from the official in-game vendors do dappers become useful.

The chance to offer grind mats up to q250 would move grind mats from the "valuable" category to the "easily obtainable" category, and remove their strong impact on the economy. At the same time, dappers would become more useful, since you would need those to obtain the grind mats from vendors. Until that happens and settles out over time, it remains to be seen if that's sufficient, or whether there's another item that feels more valuable than dappers.

A society chooses a currency based on their needs and their supplies. We can't go to some remote and tropical island, hand the natives a particular denomination of our local paper currency, and expect them to give it the same value we do. We would have to trade with them based on things that were important to them.

[xfluffee]

Not really. An apartment is 2000 bulk, a packer is 500, a mount is a transportation medium with 100 bulk. A "keep it in the stable" packer is needed fairly soon.

Even still, no one -needs- a packer (or an apartment) to play the game. I will agree 100% that the extra storage space is enormously useful, and I quickly filled up all available space almost as fast as I purchased additional storage. But it's still not required for playing the game, particularly as a newbie.

And charging a recurring fee would be very harmful to infrequent players, those who still pay their $$$ each month, but log in only a couple of times per week or month.

Expanding on my previous thoughts about packers and apartments, the basic items as they exist now should continue without recurring or extra fees. But if you wanted extra space, you could acquire storage space that charged for use: you deposit something, you pay a storage fee based on the bulk and calculated value of the item, and the amount of extra space you already use.

[pavmelas]

AUCTION: One set of [insert whatever here]: Minimum bid [insert quantity of mats here]. In any real or fantasy world I can remember reading, playing , viewing, imagining , etc.... the local "currency" could buy just about anything. Not in Ryzom.

While I wouldn't want to see NPC stocked gear of significance, raw materials oughta be available. If I visit the 4 regions and buy every mat useable for whatever skill I am pursuing, I can craft them off in about 2 minutes.

Meanwhile I'm carrying around 300 million in useless dapper that my only use for is dropping on n00bs as they arrive from Silan.

Why you care if you dappers are useless ? you know everyones dapper is useless too and we all concentrate on the really important parts of Atys.
(this is hunting, digging,crafting, insert part you enjoy here)
There are no mats on market ? since when has this stop you to get some mats ? there are possible solutions

1)master foraging and get yourself the mats you need
2)cp for master forager and ask for share
3)ask friend to give you some of his
4)maybe guild has mats storaged for exactly this ?
5)insert your creative way to get mats here..

this is not as offense intented and "anyone" can be inplace of the "you" i use.

Understand the call for currency and market, sure would make Atys life comfortable and on the other side take away uniqueness and make it replaceable.

Additionally i want you think about this :
You (the merry generic crafter here noone personally) standing infront of stable all the day and pending then and when to the vendor buy and place goods. Btw you get richer and richer , and it is possible you never left the peacefull and safely places. Never hunted mobs or even Bosses or digged in dangerous places well you hadden't to buy any armor cause you crafting naked. As reward for this you will gain the might of powerfull dapper.
You buy then the supreme and boosted armor , the supreme and boosted axe.

Now someone else (generic fighter) he set himself often in dangerous , he has to change his equipment very often cause it decays with every fight this poor fighter fights. His income ? poor. He gains some worthless mats on an avarage day, on the good days he was teamed with 5 others and together they worked hard for boss mats but sure this was his lucky day.
His reward well...his pockets empty , cause he spend all the way to buy gear to do what he is enjoying that is mellee fights. But he was lucky at last some friends gave him alms , now he bought some excel armor parts .

As solution was earlier mentioned some ways of balancing with the mats he has to buy. But i have then 3 questions :
aren't items always higher priced then raw mats ?
is the time invested to craft an item not shorter then to get the raw mats ?
is the efford put into get the raw mats not greater then to craft the item ?

All this can't be balanced IMHO.

Sorry for me "breaking" into this thread again , but i am getting quoted and just answer that.

EDIT: took me some time while replying , meanwhile xfluffee posted some insightfull things i am agree with and made my post looking partial redundand.

[ssefeaba]

Why you care if you dappers are useless ? you know everyones dapper is useless too and we all concentrate on the really important parts of Atys.

Dappers are not useless, they are currently just gimped to the point where they have little use, which is definately NOT what Nevrax intended to happen. Thats why things need to be changed. The game needs a concrete form of currency, that's the nature of all MMOs, and Ryzom was not designed to have a "Mat Economy", as that would bring even more imbalance to the game than the current economy, which really has no affect on the game's balance anyways.

Understand the call for currency and market, sure would make Atys life comfortable and on the other side take away uniqueness and make it replaceable.

Additionally i want you think about this :
You (the merry generic crafter here noone personally) standing infront of stable all the day and pending then and when to the vendor buy and place goods. Btw you get richer and richer , and it is possible you never left the peacefull and safely places. Never hunted mobs or even Bosses or digged in dangerous places well you hadden't to buy any armor cause you crafting naked. As reward for this you will gain the might of powerfull dapper.
You buy then the supreme and boosted armor , the supreme and boosted axe.

A totally unrealistic situation. To say that crafters just "sit comfortably" in front of a stable all day and craft their little hearts away just proves how little you know about it. Crafters need mats, and more often than not, they go get the mats themselves (name one master crafter you know that hasn't mastered at least one branch digging). If they were to rely on the market for their ENTIRE supply of mats, they would most certainly not make as much money as they would if they were to just go dig the mats themselves, which can be dangerous, depending on where they dig. Its not nearly as easy as you make it sound. In fact, mastering crafting skills is much harder than mastering a fight skill.

Now someone else (generic fighter) he set himself often in dangerous , he has to change his equipment very often cause it decays with every fight this poor fighter fights. His income ? poor. He gains some worthless mats on an avarage day, on the good days he was teamed with 5 others and together they worked hard for boss mats but sure this was his lucky day.
His reward well...his pockets empty , cause he spend all the way to buy gear to do what he is enjoying that is mellee fights. But he was lucky at last some friends gave him alms , now he bought some excel armor parts .

First off, most fighters are not poor, the mats that you loot off a lot creatures really add up after you been grinding for awhile, and that little stock-pile can equal quite a lot of dapper, especially once you get past the level 100 critters. If you are a fighter, and are as poor as you say the average fighter is, you're either not looting the creatures or are just not trying at all.

Second, decay is hardly ever a problem. I outgrow most of my equipment before it even gets half-way worn down. Don't even try to use that as a point in this debate.

As solution was earlier mentioned some ways of balancing with the mats he has to buy. But i have then 3 questions :
aren't items always higher priced then raw mats ?

Yes, but someone had to spend quite a lot of time to get to the point where they could craft those items, and craft them well, with good stats and all, especially the Master Crafters.

is the time invested to craft an item not shorter then to get the raw mats ?

Yes, see my response above.

is the efford put into get the raw mats not greater then to craft the item ?

No, see my response above.

All this can't be balanced IMHO.

It is balanced, you're just too short-sighted to see the balance, obviously.

[ffxjosh]

If Q200 and Q250 generic mats were to place on the market how much should they be?

A few points:

Currently most diggers sell Q250 mats anywhere between 5K and 15K per mat. Is this too high?

A Q230 choice HQ HA Vest sells for 60K(ish) to an NPC with 50 fame, which is 1.5K per mat. is this too low/high?

Using this, to bring the value of the Player selling mat down NPC's would have to sell a Q250 mat for 3.5K ?

This way, crafters could not infinetly supply themselves with materials. (I.E get more money back for a crafted item than buying the mats seperatly) And it would bring down the price of Player dug materials.

Is this a good price /solution? Killing two birds with one stone so to speak. (reducing strength of Mats and increase strength of dapper)

[jared96]

The chance to offer grind mats up to q250 would move grind mats from the "valuable" category to the "easily obtainable" category, and remove their strong impact on the economy. At the same time, dappers would become more useful, since you would need those to obtain the grind mats from vendors. Until that happens and settles out over time, it remains to be seen if that's sufficient, or whether there's another item that feels more valuable than dappers.

They don't have an impact on the economy per say because they are not really part of an open economy. We have to leave game, get out of character and go to the auction site to bid on things we want in stacks of grind mats. The central purpose of "currency" is to produce a "stable" economy. The assignment of a currency standard to an item's value allows for adjustment based upon long term supply and demand but avoids wild swings on a daily basis.

Right now you want something made, you pay in grind mats for it. No crafter wants dfappers cause he / she has no use for them. If you're a master, you have severl hundred million just from grinding and selling to npc's. And to grind our crafts we are forced to dig ..... and dig for long tedious hours with no intrinsic rewared cause we get no xp for digging. In order to get our craft to 200, we inevitably had to get our dig to 200.

Why force a player to "grind" a skill past the max level ? No, the dig other lands option is not an option....it's just another exercise in futility. Having mastered one land and PR, of what possible use is the 3 other lands ?

I don't agree that selling them makes them easily obtainable. That will depend on the price. A a person grinds at say 450 mats per level, dappers ain't gonna last long. At let's say 5k per mat, that's 2.25 million a level. So an HA crafter with 100 million would get enough levels to increase his skills by 7 and he's broke. Hardly a free ride to 250. And BTW, not saying 5k is the "right" number....just an example.

What impact would this have ?

a) Peeps would be saved a small amount of the tediousness of digging long after having mastered both one region and PR.
b) Auctions could be in nice simpe, currency instead of formulas for grind mats and cats.
c) People would be carrying around hundreds of millions of dappers.

A society chooses a currency based on their needs and their supplies.

Exactly, and we have chosen (or better said Nevrax chose for us) dapper. It's just ignored and therefore, after ya first month in game, has no value other than buying tp's and food for our packers.

We can't go to some remote and tropical island, hand the natives a particular denomination of our local paper currency, and expect them to give it the same value we do. We would have to trade with them based on things that were important to them.

I don't recall any such islands in Ryzom. Every vendor I have met takes dappers. Imagine a village, country, or even your island island where all the vendors use "wampum" as currency but the entire populace ignores it and trades on their own.