Factions vs neutrals

[jared96]

I read a bunch of stuff about Neutrals being unable to participate in FvF stuff. In regards to faction point based stuff? Darn right. Faction items (like those old pretty skirts I keep seeing?!), nope, none for neutrals.

Well to clarify, it's not that they so much want to participate in the FvF "action", they just hope to have an alternate route to some of the rewards. Example....my two sons start playing the game, one buys into FvF, one doesn't. They both log on one day after 2 months and decide to go hunting toigether ....but one is level 120 and the other is 240 so there's not much they can work on together. No one is saying take away FvF bennies, all they are saying is provide an alternate, no more painful, means of access to those types of bennies. Let them be earned for an equivalent time investment but along anotehr track.

As it stands, Outposts were largely a Faction based "thing". They aren't as much anymore (if they ever were - it was their intention from what I have read, however). Neutrals can, and do participate in that PvP.

Well to an extent. The game changed when Outposts were introduced, it went from the best community in the MMORPG to something so so. That happened because now there was stuff to argue over. We both want a certain boss mats so the logical thing to do was I help you kill and then when he repops, you help me kill and we both happy. With an OP, there's no new one popping up in 4.5 days so cooperation is not an option. When there's one new toy and two toddlers, one is gonna be unhappy and when the toddler unhappy, no onea round them is happy..... unfortunately for some, iit doesn't really change as they get older. If you don't agree, attend a little league game and watch the parents.

I left the game soon after OP's were introduced. I'd pop in every month or so, hang around until the chatter in region annoyed me and I'd log off. Then a certain status quo was reached and OP battles essentially stopped. I started playing again.....in my 1st 3 months back there were 2 OP battles.

I tried ignoring them but inevitably got caught up in an aggro drag or some other "not nicety" and of course was told "if you don't like it don't play" ... or "play someplace else". Of course that's again comparable to the "if you don't wanna inhale second hand smoke, don't breatrh" thing. Hmmm "I am 245 desert dig, this mat exists at only one location at this level, exactly what somewhere else am I suppossed to find it ?" is a question that is immaterial to them.

Neutral guilds essentially supported the status quo. When there was no fighting , there was no bickering. When no OP's were lost, there was no hard feelings. When OP's didn't change hands, stable trading agreements were possible. Whereas most neutral guilds took no sides, they did / do permit their members to participate in defenses as defenses won't change the status quo. Again, this is not to say every neutral guild's position, but holds for most that I am familiar with.

So far as PvP in general is concerned? If you wanna do it, fine, have a ball. The only parts of PvP I don't want to see? All the BS smack talk flying back and forth. All the OOC angst and anger and crap that flies back and forth.

I think that's inevitable. I have seen it said that people will always be drawn to PvP because it's human nature to wanna be better than someone else. I think it's better said many times that "people will always be drawn to PvP because it's human nature to wanna think they are better than someone else."

There are people who love competition who genuinely don't care whether they win or lose ... I mean of course they would rather win than lose but any disappointment doesn't last more than a few seconds. Then there is the subset that "needs" to win. They "need" to win because IRL they never win. These are the kids who were stuffed in lockers in junior high, the last one picked when choosing up sides for the baseball game, the ones who stomped away saying "if you're not gonna play my way I'm takin my ball and going home"....the ones who are continually passed over for promotion at work. They never win IRL so find solace in a fantasy place where they can be the equivalent of "captain of the football team".

Don't want to see it, don't look? Sure, no problem. I do try not to look at things I don't want to see, but that isn't helping convince ANYONE to play, if that's the situation, you know?

Agreed....like saying if you don't wanna be exposed to second hand smoke don't breathe.

[jennaelf]

Thank you so much for your response, jared96! Very thoughtful, and well presented.

Well to clarify, it's not that they so much want to participate in the FvF "action", they just hope to have an alternate route to some of the rewards.

Ah, like the old (played out) discussion about PR Pacts? Factions get goodies. Great. Neutrals don't get those same goodies. Great! We shouldn't! 100% agree with that approach. Should we get something equal? Maybe. Not necessarily.

Just like GF or whoever owns the game should NOT interfere in the factions if one side starts really beating the other. Interfering undoes the atmosphere of the story. (Which I would like to see progress in some way, instead of just a steady PvP outlet. Make it mean something again?)

We both want a certain boss mats so the logical thing to do was I help you kill and then when he repops, you help me kill and we both happy. With an OP, there's no new one popping up in 4.5 days so cooperation is not an option. When there's one new toy and two toddlers, one is gonna be unhappy and when the toddler unhappy, no onea round them is happy..... unfortunately for some, iit doesn't really change as they get older. If you don't agree, attend a little league game and watch the parents.

I absolutely agree with your last observation, but not necessarily with your first. Of course, my 'defense' isn't the stance of the majority, and I understand that. I give and give freely of the benefits that House Etchmarc gains from their outpost. And BGZ works toward the same ends with her community program. So it is possible for cooperation and the like to come out of things. The fault lies not in the mechanic (the OP), but in the players. As you do indicate with your toddler/parent example. *smiles*

I keep seeing comments about how mechanics are changing things as if it is some kind of strange inevitability - but they can only do it to an extent as simple mechanics. Players can and do choose how those mechanics are utilized.

I don't find it too hard to avoid OP battles. Unless a guild with a defense agreement with House Etchmarc contacts us to let us know about it, I hardly ever find out. I do sympathize with the digger issue, though I have not had that unfortunate experience yet. I think my worst experience related to PvP was mistakenly believing in the good nature of the PvPers in Ryzom, and being AFK killed. My fault, at least in part, for taking an AFK in a PvP area, even in an isolated corner. Oh well.

Whereas most neutral guilds took no sides, they did / do permit their members to participate in defenses as defenses won't change the status quo. Again, this is not to say every neutral guild's position, but holds for most that I am familiar with.

That is the state of House Etchmarc. From an IC/RP point of view, we don't support faction aggression, so yes... And I've had a couple interesting conversations on maintaining the status quo.

I think that's inevitable. I have seen it said that people will always be drawn to PvP because it's human nature to wanna be better than someone else. I think it's better said many times that "people will always be drawn to PvP because it's human nature to wanna think they are better than someone else."

Amen. I don't do open, or 1/1 pvp. Doesn't appeal. I'm not competitive in that way. OP Battles? I have fun, so long as the attitudes don't surface. Then it becomes uncomfortable and awkward.

if you don't wanna be exposed to second hand smoke don't breathe.

Much better analogy.

[jared96]

If you say so....

I didn't say it, uou did......so you are now quoting people, removing their typewritten text, inserting your own and crediting it to the other person.....doesn't Jena have any issues with "bearing false witness"

[mugendo]

Of course this is true....

.........The game may not have evolved especially fast but the community has, and that is the true dynamic of the game, and one you have to live with ultimatly.

And so is this....

.......But You do follow others ideas, be it of influence , position, experience or wisdom. It what education is, what morals are, what rules and laws are.

The forum is representative of the people who play Ryzom, (or that is the theory)...and many game decisions are in part implemented in response to player feedback here.

Therefore it is inevitable that there will be several views on what the players want, It is the fine line between catering to the 'masses' and being driven by the 'demands' of the few that must be deciphered for a game to be sucessful.
Everyone is acutely aware that World of Warcraft dominates the online market.....

Because it gives the masses what they want, easy gameplay...and the point everyone misses...GROUP INCENTIVES !!.
The instances reward/demand co-operation, the factions are set in stone (no fraternising with the enemy faction who speaks an alien language). PvP is fully supported in arenas/battlefields/invasions/duels..all offering faction as well as personal rewards and titles.
There was one other game I knew that matched these WOW features...and managed to cater FULLY to the Roleplayer !!!...events, weddings, bands, crafting, resources, hunting, etc..etc..etc..of course this game was Starwarsgalaxies.

Why did galaxies die....it didn't, it still exists and people can still login...with the knowledge that all has been stripped away to cater to the PvP crowd.
So I say to the PvP crowd they don't need to create A PvP haven here in Ryzom, there is World of Warcraft already built and waiting for them.
And if they wonder why I am so against PvP expansion in Ryzom...I invite them to look at the current state of SWG.

I hope my influence has an effect

[jared96]

your very posting whoever marks you as contrary to you're own ideal, by implying those who have views different from you are abhorrent, thus not allowed the liberty to think that way?

I'm had a real hard time following that logic as I made no such implication. Then I recognized that what you inferred from the quote is NOT what was said. Please read again.

I did NOT say I find the people abhorrent, I DID say I find the "concept" abhorrent. Those are two separate and very different things. Since we are originating in a religious faction topic, perhaps the old adage "hate the sin, not the sinner" is appropriate.

I find the concept of a belief system, where the concept of inequality is acceptable, abhorrent. I find the concept of limiting polite and open discussion abhorrent. I find the concept of torturing small animals abhorrent. As a vegetarian, I personally find the concept of eating meat abhorrent.....yet I don't find my wife and 2 outta my 3 kids who do eat meat abhorrent at all. Do you now understand the distinction ?

Quote No. 1:
Originally Posted by tigrus
Spriteh, the intention of the post was to get the "neutral dont belong in ryzom" **** discussion out of the other thread, because it would end in a arguement and gotten a good thread locked, and that thread has ALOT of great idea's from several players in it thats worth taking a look at imho.

Quote No. 2 by jared96 in response to Quote No. 1
The concept that any person's ideas and preferences take precedence or are better than anyone else's is something I find abhorrent.

And yes, like you, I also have distatste for the continued use of name calling, foul language, lack of respect etc. particularly in the message I quoted from.

[dakhound]

There are people who love competition who genuinely don't care whether they win or lose ... I mean of course they would rather win than lose but any disappointment doesn't last more than a few seconds. Then there is the subset that "needs" to win. They "need" to win because IRL they never win. These are the kids who were stuffed in lockers in junior high, the last one picked when choosing up sides for the baseball game, the ones who stomped away saying "if you're not gonna play my way I'm takin my ball and going home"....the ones who are continually passed over for promotion at work. They never win IRL so find solace in a fantasy place where they can be the equivalent of "captain of the football team"

is this wrong? do people who may not be high achievers in RL not have the right to come here and work hard and achieve here thus giving them an escape? I'm not one of these people but I dont begrudge anyone who is. There are those who have put time and effort into building their character for the sole purpose of winning, they make friends who they work hard with to win.

edit: badly said

heh so what if ppl wanna have some fun

[tigrus]

I didn't say it, uou did......so you are now quoting people, removing their typewritten text, inserting your own and crediting it to the other person.....doesn't Jena have any issues with "bearing false witness"

Oh dear...

Im not sure if you even got the point of why that was done?
[Segment removed]. The first post was, YES, posted by me and some of MY idea's.
But it was a COMMUNITY suggestion, and by that I mean, it was a discussion for the community to bring up. I did not say that THIS IS MY WISH, AND SO SHALL IT BE DONE did I? I accepted others to have a different opinion then my own, and the post's I told to basicly F*** off with was OFF TOPIC posts that had absolutely no reason to be in that thread whatsoever. And if you read through that thread, you will realise that.

[Segment removed] because otherwise he wouldnt understand the discussion, this is something stupid people have a tendency of doing to make sure they dont do something stupid. Its pretty cool tbh, stupid people make precautions to make sure they dont ***** up, while you, who are SUPPOSEDLY a clever person, dont bother reading the thread and getting mine AND others points. You read some, looks at who posted it, and then flames.

I did not ANYWHERE say my idea's are better then others, yet you argue.
I did NOT in that thead my idea's are worth more then others, YET you argue.
I EVEN tell them that If they post any idea's at all, I will edit it into the main post so that its a COMMUNITY helping effort to the DEVs, YET you argue.
Then I ask for off topic posts to be kept in a different thread, and i EVEN go as far as to MAKE the thread FOR them so that the point is retarded proof., and you go wanka woodo through the roof.

This makes me wonder, do you post because you are obsessed with arguing with me? Are your hate for me that big? Am I and my actions and thoughts and sincere thought to help this community get a better game so important to you and your life that you MUST argue without even bother to actually set yourself REALLY into what you are arguing about?
Because if so, I suggest you go see someone, because it isnt healthy becoming that deeply obsessed with someone. Especially when I have no interest in you whatsoever.
[Segment removed] understand the points and comprehend what you actually read?

You say im all about Mr.PvP, alot of you do.
Yet I throw PVE and RP events. And have ANOTHER one on the way.
I make PvP events.
I went as far as to defend the RPers and try to explain TO them why alot of people have a issue with them, and I then go and defend my RP friends.
You talk as if you know me, yet you have little clue as to what I do and what I actually am.
You judge me because of SOME of my words on these forums. Yet you fail to see the effort I put into this community, is that not the top of ignorance?

You will never see me judge a person by his words on these forums.
There hasnt been a single person I havent forgiven for anything yet.
Given a second chance. Most people even a third.
There hasnt been a person I have flamed that hasnt flamed me FIRST.

Can you say the same?

Ignorance is a bliss is it not?

[tigrus]

Why did galaxies die....it didn't, it still exists and people can still login...with the knowledge that all has been stripped away to cater to the PvP crowd.
So I say to the PvP crowd they don't need to create A PvP haven here in Ryzom, there is World of Warcraft already built and waiting for them.
And if they wonder why I am so against PvP expansion in Ryzom...I invite them to look at the current state of SWG.

It wasnt PvP that killed SWG.
It was the fact that people got good enough to solo and camp PvE things and people called it unbalanced. Thank you very much for your OPINION though.
Its very very wrong. And the PvP was FAR better BEFORE they nerfed it. Which is agreed by nearly everyone..

(of course some things got changed due to PvP, DoT's being the main thing)

[karmelit]

To avoid spam in our GOOD thread about war escalation.
Please discuss the neutral vs faction bla bla bla in here..


Your friendly neighbourhood sexy beast

I would like to remind you of why you did start this thread, and please return the favour, will you?
Keep your ideas in the other designated thread, thank you

edited to better expess what I ment

[tigrus]

I actually am on topic according to my own subject.


Check the BLA BLA BLA (which in my language means general ****), and then also see the point that ive told that in 2 other replies.