Xavier's still at it :)

[ashling]

Oh I'm sorry if you thought it was to convince people, I just wanted to rant a bit and inform people about what 'I' believe will result from this whole 'Free Ryzom' jig.

Ahh right, fair enough. Rants do tend to get in the way of informing thought

And you could hang around in #ryzom.org at irc:\\irc.freenode.org to ask these questions. I found out about that chat channel at ryzom.org

Well not from work I can't and anyway Fattus volunteered to ask any questions on the ryzom.org forums so I'm covered!

[mithur]

I've seen alot of posts that seem to go like this:
"Ryzom run by players? One hit monsters with huge loots everywhere!"
"Players can't host the servers needed to run the game!"
"Democratic game decisions? Everthing will go pvp and everybody gets nerved!"

Good you choose the weakest and worst informed compliances made. You well could have mentioned other mor serious compliances, like the doubt start, or the clear preference for Free soft over the game itself.

Let's look at existing open source projects. Let's take Linux.
The sourcecode is available to anyone, anyone can submit his sourcecode to enhance the product. This sourcecode has to meet certain demands.
You can't just submit code and expect it to get implemented, or else you'd have any hacker submitting their own backdoor.
(...)
Players won't be running the server, the company behind the Free Ryzom will be running it, from the FEE that you still have to pay for playing on the main server.

True. Most of us don't see any advantage in that kind of development for this kind of game. Sorry, but sometimes you can't do meat with a recipe for vegetables.

I believe most people aren't familair with opensource projects, or think Ryzom will be owned by just players.
Ryzom WON'T be just owned by players.
And PLEASE read a bit into opensource projects or what the "Free Software Foundation" stands for.

I am very familiar with OpenSource projects. Even with Free Software Projects (Isn't the same, so STOP the misinformation now, please). I've done some small contributions to Free Soft Projects, like Mono.

I really don't think that this model could do any good to this game. And I know the model very well, I know the problem of FS development very, very well.

BTW: The possibility that the FSF have the copyrigth of the code, as Xavier says here (Third paragraph): http://software.newsforge.com/software/ ... 7210.shtml
looks horrible to me. I think that FSF and RMS are zealots, and I don't want this game being used for politics. It's my opinion.

Rabid coders can try to make a true linux version of the game.
Or wacko programmers can try to squeeze it into a pda.
Students can try to make advanced AI systems using the released sourcecode of Ryzom as project.
Behaviour researchers could add monsters that demostrate simple evolutionary processes by giving players breedable pets.

Frakly, good for him, I don't care. Personally, I want this game being the game I like, and not being some hybrid engine good-for-all-and-nothing.

This is what the Free Ryzom Project means to me, not "omg, players wil haxor teh game if players are GM!". Cause that is not what's going on.

Please read my whole post.

Plase, read the whole threads treating this item. The compliances you quote are the weakest and the lesser. The importants ones, you have left it apart.

[vardarac]

Good you choose the weakest and worst informed compliances made.

Plase, read the whole threads treating this item. The compliances you quote are the weakest and the lesser. The importants ones, you have left it apart.

It's exacly these worst case complaints that spurred me to post. I'm not the only player here that feel they aren't represented by these complains.
Quite alot of us like the idea Ryzom being open to the public.
Just saying just that.

And there are some well made complains. Unfortunatly, most of them are about subjects I'm not familair with. This is just about my personal opinions and views on the matter.

Personally, I want this game being the game I like, and not being some hybrid engine good-for-all-and-nothing.

These were examples. There is nothing stopping people from using the released source and shape it into something wacky or innovative. Just as there's nothing stopping you from NOT using these wacky releases.
Just because someone managed to rewrite linux to fit a calculator, doesn't mean people have to deal with it. Your ISP couldn't care less that their router could run on a TI-83.

All I'm saying that you COULD. And the business model? Sorry, can't reply to that since I don't know about buziness models and such.

btw, it seems to me that FSF is just one of the 'community'. They aren't buying the copyright. They are supporting the project, they aren't the project.

Just my opinion and assumptions here. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[mithur]

Ok, as long this is oncly a discussion about the option, we can talk fiendly and freely.

About the item regarding the copyrigth owning by the FSF:

Xavier Antoviaque, the coordinator of the campaign, is also reported by Baugh as saying that he is interested in the possibility of assigning the copyright for Free Ryzom to the FSF.

In the new I've linked in my last post. And (I've readed Ryzom.org as far as I wan't be well-documented), Xavier says:

I have thus discussed it with the FSF, Valentin and Olivier, everyones seems to agree it could be a good solution. We'll see, if we win the bid, to get all the legal details as to how it would be possible.

So, the FSF owing the rigths of the code is a big possibility. You can call me paranoic, but i don't like the politics make by FSF (Including the pressure against Linus Torvalds for have him making the licensing as they like). If they own the code... well, I'm sure that they'll have a damn lot of influence in the project. And the main concretn of FSF (And the only, I must say, and is normal) is the Free Soft, and not Ryzom (Being that my main concern with ryzom.org).

I see you don't know the FS world in all the extension needed to take this topics (At leas, as far I can see by your answer to my last post) . I do, as far I've released a lot of projects in Open Source (Not GPL), and collaborated a little in som big GPL projects. And, what the hell! I love OpenSource! Only it appears to me that this approach is very, very wrong.

Don't think that the opposition to this project is only by ignorance. Some of us know very well the item. In some areas, better than you, possibly, no offence meant

BTW: The Tamagochi examples from Ryzom.org... still don't like it, and I think your are better. Some of the solutions that the site gives... I don't like it too. And the response of Xavier to the "banned" users reentry is... well, let's say, biased:

I don't know for the others, but I think it is *very* important to completely review, on the light of the community, all the CS process (CoC, privacy issues, past decisions, structure - everything). I know how twisted the current system can be, so personally I'd revoke all banishments and start building a new system, which would better redistribute power and only enforces the social contract, not the privileges of a handful of people.

I still not like the "no resucitation" ideas and so on. But I know, i know, that ideas are only some pieces not representing the ideas of the leaders, only of some of the members of ryzom.org. It's simply that, the "feeling" of that community... doesn't look like a good feeling to me. A little crazy, too many ideas, too few reality... you know

[fattus]

mithur

If you are going to refer to something (like the Tamagochi example as you did). Wouldn't it be nice if you mentioned the full context and not just take parts out and put it somewhere else where the meaning would be totally different?

[rundll32]

never mind never mind, we'll know soon

[kyrix]

hi mithur. first of all, have you read the posts i submitted before?
http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showpost.php ... tcount=352
http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showpost.php ... tcount=156


First of all, I have to agree with you in certain points. I would say that transferring the copyrights to the FSF might not be a good idea, at least not right away, if we think about what is best for the ryzom gaming community. Having the possibility to change the license (for example from GPL to affero) is something that I would not relinquish at this stage.

Second, they are not spreading misinformation by using the opensource or free software terms. The GPL is both an opensource and free license. It is hard to say opensource/free each time you refer to the license, and even free and opensource software coders (like myself) exchange them often, even if it is incorrect.

True. Most of us don't see any advantage in that kind of development for this kind of game. Sorry, but sometimes you can't do meat with a recipe for vegetables.

I am very familiar with OpenSource projects. Even with Free Software Projects (Isn't the same, so STOP the misinformation now, please). I've done some small contributions to Free Soft Projects, like Mono.

I really don't think that this model could do any good to this game. And I know the model very well, I know the problem of FS development very, very well.

I don't know how involved you have really been in opensource projects, but as you can see in many of the popular projects, it is, from a technical point of view, an extremely effective development method. That is the reason why most commercial development companies are adopting their methods.

And from a business perspective, as i explained in the other posts, there are some very good reasons to opensource ryzom, for the sake of the ryzom game. Another small company will be in the same position as nevrax, in a couple of years time at most. Opensourcing the code will probably reduce costs dramtically. It will probably allow the game to be ported to linux and OSX faster, allowing the game to be more accessible to more users. It might get more companies/coders interested that will contribute code/resources, even if the projects they are involved in have a completely other use of the base code.



Ryzom in the hands of another company trying to compete against the big ones, well, unless they have a lot of start capital or make something really innovative, it will make no difference. A big company buying ryzom, well, I don't really know what interest they could have, maybe if they dont have a MMORPG of their own and would like to use ryzom to enter the market. Any big fish that would apply to? don't know. Ryzom is a good game, but its a niche game in a very competitive and saturated market, and it doesn't have a huge user base.

Even if things go slowly at first, I see a lot more potential in ryzom being opensourced. Apart from all the other advantages for gamers as whole if we have more games

[ashling]

Ryzom is a good game, but its a niche game in a very competitive and saturated market, and it doesn't have a huge user base.

True but on the plus (a plus for Ryzom, I consider it a negative about the MMO industry lol) side 99% (very rough guess ) of the MMO market is elf orc EQ1 copies and not niche games

[fattus]

Hi Fattus do you know if anything been said about how ryzom.org would handle people that have been baned by Nevrex in the past? Would be a pity to see bad elements being able to come back into the community if the bans were cleared.

Ash, I did my best to get a conclusive answer but there seems to be considerations in both directions.

Some say: No, keep them out
Some say: Give them another chance - maybe they grew up
Others say: It doesn't matter, somebody banned would just get another account anyway...

And so on....

This is the reply from Xavier though:

"
I don't know for the others, but I think it is *very* important to completely review, on the light of the community, all the CS process (CoC, privacy issues, past decisions, structure - everything). I know how twisted the current system can be, so personally I'd revoke all banishments and start building a new system, which would better redistribute power and only enforces the social contract, not the privileges of a handful of people.
"

Note that his opinion does not count more than others (we're a democratic community), but he's the one that has most experience concerning this so I think it makes sense that his voice let be heard here also.

IMO the most natural way to settle this in a Free and Democratic community would be by voting (when time comes). Come over and use your voice/vote.

However, there's not much use in voting on this issue until we know where we stand. So ATM I'm afraid the answer I have to give you is that we don't know (yet). Latest roumers are that the court's delayed due to some hearing (Eurotunnel), but that they're going to have a session before the end of this week.


On behalf of the Ryzom.org community
/Aprak

P.S. Kyrix, I love your posts - very accurate and informative. Guys, listen to him - he really knows what he is talking about. D.S.

[ashling]

Thanks Fattus. Mostly not the answer I would have liked but I appricate you asking for me and the answers.