Saga of Ryzom: Warriors need not apply?

[ogreb42]

Hello everyone,

I've been playing Ryzom for a few days now, and generally speaking, I'm fairly impressed by the whole mechanic of building my own skills. However, after looking through the skills available to warriors, it seems to me that options for strategy for them are somewhat limited. Casters, on the other hand, seem to have a much wider variety of combinations of things at their disposal. Additionally, after watching a PvP video I found on the net, I'm worried that PvP is a caster nuke-fest, where the heavy armor wearing warrior has to keep his distance or have his armor turned in to a dutch oven. I know it's been said that this game is not like other MMOs on the market, but one of the things that initially got myself and my friends hooked was the prospect of a strategically deep combat system. We would love to get lost in the stronger sense of role play that seems to be present in Ryzom, but I think that without a reasonably strong strategic battle mechanic, it'll just end up feeling like another grind game.

To anyone who has experience with the nuances of playing a warrior character: am I right? How does PvE combat normally flow? Is the role of warrior reasonably engaging, or does it just end up being the normal taunt-smash-smash-taunt-smash fest that is so common in other MMOs? What role do warriors play in PvP combat? Would you be useful in PvP if you showed up wearing your heavy armor and armed with your trusty sword and board, or do you have to be a medium-light armor wearing, dual-wielding damage machine to play a significant role?

Also, anyone who feels like chiming in with their experience concerning the flow of battle both from a PvE and a PvP perspective from the viewpoint of a caster, I'd love to hear what you have to say, too. I've made some assumptions about how things work based on what I've seen so far, and it'd be interesting to see how they compare to the impressions of players who have been around the block a few times.

Thanks!

[katriell]

I'm worried that PvP is a caster nuke-fest, where the heavy armor wearing warrior has to keep his distance or have his armor turned in to a dutch oven.

Actually, warriors tend to run into the midst of things to a) knock down casters (heavy melee, like axe and sword), and b) interrupt spellcasts (light melee, like double daggers).

I don't feel like going into specifics at the moment, but I will say that at 232 2 Handed Sword I'm quite content with melee.

EDIT: Ok, here's a thought. You can choose to setup one increased-damage/accuracy attack and stick with that sandwich-combat style and be mediocre at best, or you can choose to use a more tactical style. Such tactics may include additional attacks with stanzas tuned for use at certain moments or during particular situations (i.e. Attack After Parry, which acts as an action credit so you don't have to use as much stamina and HP, and becomes active briefly after you parry an attack), movement (when you're "tanking," your position in relation to the target and the other team members affects its aggro, i.e. staying between the kitin and the tender casters may be helpful in keeping its attention from straying), and how to use things like the Aim stanzas (each body part corresponds to a certain effect that occurs when you make a critical hit, i.e. you can hit the head to stun (see below)).

Head: Stun.
Chest: Lose an amount of stamina equal to 50% of the HP damage done. (Only applicable to PvP, since animals don't have stamina.)
Hands: Decrease combat skill by 20 levels. (hit chances and parry)
Arms: Slow attacks.
Legs: Slow movement.
Feet: Decrease dodge by 20 levels.

And a little anecdote:

During the recent exterminator battles, it was fairly vital to keep the exterminator-kitin out of the casters, and it was difficult to do so with 1-2 dozen healers and elementals and only 2-4 melee. The thing seemed to have a nasty case of A.D.D. We had to make efforts to physically push the kitin back, and my taunts tended to fail so most of the time all I could do was try to position myself between the casters and the kitin. I don't know how much success the other warriors were having with their taunts, but I think this serves to demonstrate that simple use of a few actions is not the whole of melee.

Now, looking at the number of casters vs. the number of melee, you might be thinking melee is useless except as a meatshield to take damage and hold the target's attention while the elementals deal the damage and healers...well, heal everyone. That may be the case occasionally, but I've had plenty of experience of teams in which melee does the damage and elementals are peripheral support, if present at all. These teams even tend to work more smoothly because, for some reason, putting on magic amps and starting up the elemental spells seems to rob the caster of some amount of self-control and sense. Just my observation.

EDIT: Whoa...I wonder what happened to "don't feel like going into specifics." xD

[iwojimmy]

The recent Kitin invasion showed the strength of the melee skill ( more accurate than saying "warrior class" ). A fighter in Heavy armour could solo his way thru the invading mobs, where a nuker and healer would still get swamped. There are creatures which are resistant to magic - and there are creatures resistant to melee.. you adjust your tactics to suit your circumstances.
As is standard in most games, the Nukers have the highest damage output, while the melees are the most resilient.

The Role of melees in PvP battles is to get in amongst the enemy casters - their healers preferably, and butcher them all, which they do reasonably effectively. They can be decisive in battle, without being overpowering.

For normal PvE hunting, the idea seems to be to set up a least risk/highest return operation and that usually ends up with the melees taunting and tanking, either pulling the mobs themselves, or catching them off a caster puller.

In a one on one Duel, a melee will pretty much beat a caster of the same level most of the time.

[sx4rlet]

I am not very into PvP, but as far as I have seen, warriors can are truely needed on the battlefield. The nukers are the real damage doers, but when a warrior can reach the nukes, or better, the healers, it will be like slaughtering young seals, and the battle will be over quick.

For PvE I find melee quite boring, but it also depends a bit what you are hunting. Hunting the kitins last week wasnt really boring, because of the groups of 3. But melee is just not really my thing...

[gillest]

Hello everyone,
Casters, on the other hand, seem to have a much wider variety of combinations of things at their disposal. ..... We would love to get lost in the stronger sense of role play that seems to be present in Ryzom, but I think that without a reasonably strong strategic battle mechanic, it'll just end up feeling like another grind game.

1- Yes casters have more possibilities of editing spells as they can fine tune them with Range stanzas or time stanzas: the more range and the less time, the higher u need to use HP and sap counterpart.

2- There are different stanzas as specified in previous post: Attack after dodge or attack after parry, feint and atk after feint (need to be used as same actions): those reduce the amount of stam and HP used and can be good to solo. Other attack include accurate attack, increase damage (those 2 mixed together form the basic melee attack)and ignore armur (for pikes only) which do also form a lot of different combinaison.
Most of those attack are not always used by tanks during hunt-grinding as the fact of having a healer focusing on the tank makes it kinda useless to save stam on one action. But the same happens with mages who may nuke at maxi distance and with no time if they have dedicated healer...

To anyone who has experience with the nuances of playing a warrior character... Is the role of warrior reasonably engaging, or does it just end up being the normal taunt-smash-smash-taunt-smash fest that is so common in other MMOs? What role do warriors play in PvP combat? Would you be useful in PvP if you showed up wearing your heavy armor and armed with your trusty sword and board, or do you have to be a medium-light armor wearing, dual-wielding damage machine to play a significant role?

The taunt-smash-smash fest is true for hunt-grind on mobs but is also assimilated to the personal skills (as a player) of the tank himself: he is going to react fast enough in case of 2 aggros to taunt the second mob away from the healer? Does he have his weapon enchanted with heal spell and will he be able to res the healer while keep the 2 mobs on him he case he failed to taunt the 2nd mob in first place?...
So even in PvE where the taunt-smash fest exist, a lot of circonstances could make it very strategical...

For PVP (I do not PvP so much but did participate in some fights before OP), in case of a nuking fest: having a melee coming from the back of the ennemy lines when all are concentrating in nuking ennemy caster, this nuker can make
very serious damages amongst your ranks.. So in PvP as well, Melee and strategy can play a decisive role...

Added to that:
1- Nukers can drain out very very fast due to high cost of high lvl spells and do not have any protection against melee attack (or very very low protection due to caster armur): so they drain themselves out and u just have to finish them...
2- All homins have a natural magic resistance which is also increase by equipment (jewels and heavy armur) and can give real hard time to casters... (I did not even mentionned interruptions of spells as I am mainly 2 handed)..

[killgore]

Basic lvl hunting is generally a taunt smash fest but anyone who has duoed a Q270 Supreme boss knows the tank is busy as heck holding aggro and enchant healing the mage It can be a most challenging and rewarding experience.-Kil

[ogreb42]

First of all, thank you for all of your thoughtful responses. My background in MMOs has to date centered around significantly larger games (SWG (in the old days), DAoC, EQ2, and others), and I'm used to official forums basically being useless because of all the useless background chatter. Try to ask a question, and you'll be bombarded with shouts of "cry more, n00b," or other similarly useless 'leet sayings.

The revelation that the targeted attacks actually have an effect other than dealing damage to a specific hit location is pretty big. Before, my friends and I figured that the purpose of the positional attack was just to allow warriors to attack a perceived weak spot in their enemy's armor. Although that is an interesting mechanic, it doesn't add a whole lot of diversity to what a warrior can do. The effects, however, change that, since they are something above and beyond simple damage.

I'm still curious about a few other things, and would love for anyone new who has something to share about the subject to chime in as well. First, we've been wondering what the differences between the different types of weapons are. The skill set for a sword and for a two handed hammer are virtually identical, so we've been wondering whether they play any differently, or whether they're basically just the same thing, but with a different animation. Would there be an advantage to being proficient with multiple kinds of weapons, or do fighters typically pick whatever they think looks best and stick with it forever?

Second, we've been wondering about the viability of a heavy armor wearing warrior-mage hybrid. Having the ability to have a few spells in your arsenal of moves would be great both in terms of spicing up game play and in terms of increasing your overall utility in PvP and PvE situations. However, it seems like the malice gained from heavy armor and weapons all but rules out magic use. Are there any warriors out there who like to try and toss out the occasional spell in battle? Is there anyone out there who has tried it and was disappointed with the results?

Thanks again!

[sx4rlet]

As far as I can remember different weapons are used for different mobs. A mace is pretty useless against any beast with a lot of natural armor (like a lot of kitins), but a piercing weapon can penetrate the armor and there for do good damage.
A mace is good for smashing mobs that have light and fragile bones, like flying things (this one I do not know for sure..)
So the choice of weapon is not looks only, it also depends on _what_ you are fighting.

(btw it is the same for mages, as some mobs are resistant to certain types of magic...)

Using magic in heavy armor is useless, except for emergency healing in case of mob wipe. But since the revamp of medium armor, I've seen quite some mages wearing (parts) of medium armor.
Remember, magic uses fast hand and body movements, which is hard when you are wearing a very heavy shell around you...

[jennaelf]

If you want to hybrid, you want to go with Medium armor. You won't be the best at either one thing, but you will be able to fill the role of a good support figure. I have not tried this in a larger group, but I have functioned in medium armor for a while. From time to time I also function as a caster in full armor, and it works out "okay". Examples are tight spots where the team is dropping like flies and all the healers are down. Slap on the amps, heal the best healer back on their feet and PRAY that your melee protection aura and heal self are enough to keep you up long enough to get that healer up and keep them up to get someone else up. I've had extreme success with this, but these have all been "tight spots". However, I literally cast myself near to death, since my heals are half sap, half life credits (no distance or time, I want them fast and far) - this is due to the malus of wearing heavy armor.

Another alternative for you would be to use enchanted weapons. This lets you deliver a spell so long as your weapon has the sap charges for it.

I grab my sword before I put on my amplifiers, unless someone's dying.

[geezas]

I'm still curious about a few other things, and would love for anyone new who has something to share about the subject to chime in as well. First, we've been wondering what the differences between the different types of weapons are. The skill set for a sword and for a two handed hammer are virtually identical, so we've been wondering whether they play any differently, or whether they're basically just the same thing, but with a different animation. Would there be an advantage to being proficient with multiple kinds of weapons, or do fighters typically pick whatever they think looks best and stick with it forever?

At some point your melee tree will split and you can specialize in the different weapon types, first 1h and 2h then in damage type and then in weapon type. These specializations make you more proficient with a type of weapon and subsequently make you do more damage with them.

Example
Character A: Level 250 axe, level 150 pike.
Hits generic mob for with a generic QL250 axe for 1000 HP
Hits a generic mob with a generic QL250 pike for 600 HP

Character B level 150 axe, level 250 pike.
Hits generic mob for with a generic QL250 axe for 600 HP
Hits a generic mob with a generic QL250 pike for 1000 HP

Melee fighters mostly pick a weapon with a damage type that performs well in most situations or that is adaptable to most situations. Or whatever they think is cool

Being proficient in multiple damage types has the advantage that you can do good damage in almost any situation (some mobs are very resistant to melee).