Production: Range fight skill tree

[kay22626]

Thats great news! Im happy to hear this because i like ranged and the ranged skill tree is not very well developed. Other than hit rate theres no range specific skill out there, besides in PVE ranged has very limited use. I like ranged and i craft ranged weps and ammo but i rarely use them, right now ranged fighting is more of a funny gadget than a viable skill tree (im talking pve, im not interested in pvp).
Im really excited to hear theres plans to give ranged some attention

[kibsword]

Non-sensical post to follow:

Orbital Ion Cannons for the win!

[ajsuk]

haha, trust you Kibsy!

I knew I went Karavan for a reason.

[norvic]

Seeing I mentioned Kara wrist Lasers and one or two other things have been said maybe springing from this, I was serious.

Not talking about some uber item, (Homins lack the tools to make item to Kara Standard), plan linked to a Kara rite, as with ammo plan, maybe a further rite from the zorai (re electricity) to enable the actual ammo to be crafted.

edit: and ofc the Furry alternative, maybe along the lines of the Goo gun that killed Wyler.

[cloudy97]

edit: and ofc the Furry alternative, maybe along the lines of the Goo gun that killed Wyler.

My spacesuit-goddess, Goo gun means permadeath weapons! That would surely equal the number combatants of the two sides.

How about siege weapons like those the Siblings of the Weeds use: Cratchas. So when preparing for battle you plant a few fast-growing cratchas to protect against AoE-spells (which may trigger their defense mechanism).

Pugmak presented this similar idea a few months ago: http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23642

And of course, mounted combat with guns would be fun. Maybe limited to pistols only.

[olepi]

I like range, here are my ideas:

- add some graphics effects, like tracers, to make it look better

- increase the damage by 10-20%. I think the equivalent range shot should do slightly more damage than a dmg spell. This is because ammo is finite, whereas the spells can keep going. The range person has to run back to town, so the effective dmg/time is less. Beef up range a small amount to offset this.

- pistols need some work. Allow dual-wielding, and reduce the stamina cost. I would also reduce the range, perhaps down to about 1/2 of a rifle. Pistols should shoot faster, with less range, than rifles.

- create a "magnum" class of ammo, that does quite a bit more dmg. These would require a different plan than regular ammo, and perhaps slightly different mats.

- I wouldn't change the weight, ammo should weigh a lot.

Olepi

[sehracii]

Ranged Skill Restructuring:
Joint proposal by Sehracii and Sidusar

Overall these changes will: reduce cost (material or dapper) of leveling ranged fight, increase the damage to contribute more to teams, and increase versatility to interest more people in trying it out and play different roles.


General Ammo:

Increase the output of ammo from any given craft. Specifically, double current pistol and rifle rate of 40 shots for 4 mats to 80 shots for the same 4 mats. Quadruple bow rifle/pistol output of 20 per 6 mats to 80 shots per 6 mats. Double autolauncher and launcher crafts from 6 per 12 and 3 per 12 to 12 shots and 6 shots, respectively.

Allow purchase of high damage ammo from NPC vendors at any time. Don't make it maximum damage, but the equivalent of what would be produced from fine-grade high damage materials. Make it available for all weapon and for all Q's, but only of slashing damage type. Reduce the currrent prices of the (junk) NPC ammo to match the change in output per craft as detailed above.

For example, Q250 bowrifle ammo currently costs ~4000 per shot. As bow ammo output was quadrupled, divide this cost by 4 to reduce it to 1000 per shot. If a Q250 bowrifle ammo crafter matched that price, they would get 13k per mat they used, and the purchaser would get more (choice grade most likely) damage.

Important: Bow and regular ammo can no longer be interchangeable.

Optional: to make it easier for entry-level rangers, reduce the cost of Q10 ammo in half yet again. Scale the price up from there to match the prices as detailed above.


New Skill: Focus Shot

The strength of ranged weapons is their mobility, but they suffer greatly in damage because of it and it means they can't offer significantly as a damage dealer to a team (which stay stationary so no mobility benefit) This skill, Focus Shot, would be useable by any gun except launcher/autolauncher. It will significantly increase their damage without overpowering ranged in general.

How it works- while performing a Focus Shot, your damage is increased to 2.5 times listed ammo damage. However, your mobility is removed. You can not run, and in fact can be interrupted. Consider it exactly like casting a spell. If you take a physical damage attack, the level of the attack is checked against your level in the ranged weapon you're using to determine chance of interrupt.There is no way to decrease your chance of interrupt. You can NOT dodge or parry while performing a Focus Shot. The shot actually fires at the completion of the action, not the beginning like shooting usually works. Focus shot can NOT be combined with increased hit rate, you will be using default attack speed.


Gun Stats:

After extensive consideration of the Damage modifier when crafting a weapon, we find it may be best to leave it off. It results in ranged damage being reliant on materials twice- both the gun and the ammo, and would benefit only those who have extensive access to high grade supreme materials. For the same reason, we should not implement the range and speed modifiers for ammo crafting. We want to make ranged more accessible, not less.
Currently, Parry Value is based on hand-to-hand skill lvl when using ranged. This will stay the same, except for with bowrifles and bowpistols. Parry when using these weapons will be based on your skill in that weapon, and even possibly benefit from modifiers on the gun. The rest of the weapons will have 0 parrry modifer because it is not based on your skill with that weapon.

HR designates Hit Rate stanza, doubles your attack rate.
FS designates Focus shot stanza, as detailed above.
All damage values given are for lvl 250 user and max damage ammo.


Specific Guns:

Pistol-
Pistol needs dual wield. It's what everyone wants. As is, its like offering a 1-handed sword next to a 2-handed and not letting them use a shield or dagger.
The new pistol will be a dual wield, high-damage, high-material consumption, low accuracy, low range skill. Bow-pistol will not be dual wield, see following section. To compensate for doubled output, damage of the ammo must be reduced to 75% of current value. Current Q250 pistol ammo does 345, new value would be 259.
The pistols themselves would have a chance of improving the users dodge value, and not affect parry.

Pistol Stats - change to dual wield and reduce damage 25%
Max Range: 30
Max Speed: 30
Old damage per shot: 345
Old damage per minute: 20700
New damage per shot: 259 X 2
HR damage per minute: 31050
FS damage per minute: 38850
Adv mods: 20 to 0
Dodge mod: -5 to 5
Parry mod: 0

The new damage output is between 1H and 2H melee when mobile and using Hit Rate. However, with Focus Shot it is higher than all melee but still less than elemental magic. This seems reasonable given you're just as vulnerable as an elemental but consuming large amounts of materials, with low accuracy (note the adversary mods)


Bowpistol-
Bows are too cumbersome to dual wield. To compensate, the damage will be increased rather then reduced. However, it will still be lower damage than dual wield. The other advantages will be less material consumption, possible better defense (manifested by being able to parry with the weapon), and better accuracy (note adversary mods.) Hurts users dodge value, improve their parry.

Suggested Option: Allow use of a shield with bowpistols only to better define its purpose.

Bowpistol Stats- increase damage: 33%
Max Range: 30
Max Speed: 30
Old damage per shot: 345
Old damage per minute: 20700
New damage per shot: 459
HR damage per minute: 27351
FS damage per minute: 34425
Adv mods: 0 to -20
Parry mod: -10 to 10
Dodge mod: -10 to 0


Bowrifle-
Bowrifle will stay largely unchanged, except for an increase in damage and the ability to parry with the weapon. Standard "workhorse" ranged weapon for leveling. Balanced in terms of adversary mods. Hurts users dodge, improves parry.

Bowrifle Stats- Increased damage
Max Range: 40
Max Speed: 24
Old damage per shot: 459
Old damage per minute: 22032
New damage per shot: 625
HR damage per minute: 30000
FS damage per minute: 37500
Adv mods: 10 to -10
Parry mod: -10 to 10
Dodge mod: -10 to 0


Rifle-
Rifle will come to play a unique role, the sniping weapon. For this we will keep the same (low) damage as its had in the past, but we will increase the range to 60m. This will match launcher as longest attack in-game and can have a variety of tactical uses we'll leave you to discover. Will have negative adversary mods for high accuracy, no self parry mod, and negative dodge making it easier for the user to get hit.

Rifle Stats- Increased range, same damage
Max Range: 60
Max Speed: 24
Old damage per shot: 459
Old damage per minute: 22032
New damage per shot: 459
HR damage per minute: 22032
FS damage per minute: 27540
Adv mods: 0 to -20
Parry mod: 0
Dodge mod: -10 to 0


SIEGE WEAPONS: Launcher and Autolauncher

The biggest concern with the AoE launcher and autolauncher weapons is the massive bulk of the ammo, which limits your firing capacity severely. We will adress this in a novel but simple way.

Currently, the limiting factor on AoE ammo is always the bulk. However, there is a little used bag limiting mechanic known as weight. By simply switching the AoE ammo limit from bulk to weight we greatly increas ease of use without overpowering the weapons. We will reduce launcher ammo bulk from 15 per shot to 1.5. This will allow a user to have 100+ shots in their bag at one time. However, the weight of each shot will be inceased to ~30kg. At approximately 550kg bag weight, a player with 260 strength stat begins to quickly lose speed factor. Assuming approximately 50kg of other gear, that means a lvl 250 fighter can carry ~16 launcher shots and still run full speed. Add 3-5 more shots and they are reduced to 0 speed factor, unable to move at all. What better disadvantage to the sheer power of siege weapons then being locked down in one spot? Feel free to bulk up with tons of ammo, but don't expect to be mobile. You'll need to either fire most of your shots or sell/destroy them to move again.

Similarly with autolauncher, we will reduce the bulk to 1 per shot, but increase the weight to ~10, to maintain the 3:1 mobile capacity we have now when compared with launcher.

Edit: Weight limit would need to be implemented on packers to stop a mobile ranger from running around with hundreds of pre-made shots they can just drop into their bag. Something like 500kg and they stop running (but can still hold more)

To step up the damage-dealing potential of AoE guns in line with the rest of ranged, it seems launcher could do with a 50% damage increase. At lvl 250 it currently does 1656 damage on the main target, with reduced damage on secondaries. While it is effective, its still a bit slim when compared to elemental magic, which has no material requirements. With a 50% increase it would reach 2208 damage per shot on the main target, much more worthy of the immense effort it takes to level the skill. Autolauncher's damage output is currently appropriate for the ammo limitations, so instead of increasing its damage as well we will slightly increase the speed, 25%, up to 15 hits per minute. This will further differentiate it from the launcher.

For those concerned, the bag weight capacity is limited by strength, so a lvl 10 fighter will only have about ~350kg capacity before speed starts to be reduced. This will only limit them to 10 launcher shots/30 autolaunchers, nothing too severe.

Special note: Currently, when speed factor drops, so does the effective level of all your skills. This is a completely un-used mechanic, and since it interferes with the above plan it must be removed. A more suitable replacement would be to decrease a player's dodge/parry values as their speed factor drops. We want them to be able to shoot effectively still, but its good if they become very vulnerable to physical attacks in this weighed down state. Note parry value when using siege weapons will still be based on your hand-to-hand melee lvl, and as such the guns will have no self parry modifier.

Concerning weight: The weight of ammo is actually a stat that can be controlled during crafting via "lightness." The above weights mentioned of 30kh and 10kg are considered for 50% precraft lightness. It's possible to do slightly better then 50% precraft with just choice materials, and of course better yet with excellent and supreme. However, the benefit of using supreme materials is slight: a launcher user being able to possibly fit in 5 more shots without reducing their speed factor. Lightness will be a stat to pay attention to when crafting ammo, but won't alter ranged use significantly.


Launcher- Increase damage 50%
Max Range: 60
Max Speed: 12
Old damage per shot: 1656
Old damage per minute: 39744
New damage per shot: 2208
HR damage per minute: 52992
Adv mods: -10 to 10
Dodge mod: -20 to 0
Parry mod: 0
Ammo stats per bullet:
30 weight at 50% precraft lightness
varies 20-40 with materials used
1.5 bulk

Autolauncher- Increase speed 25%
Max Range: 50
Max Speed: 15
Old damage per shot: 1104
Old damage per minute: 26496
New damage per shot: 1104
HR damage per minute: 33240
Adv mods: -10 to 10
Dodge mod: -20 to 0
Parry mod: 0
Ammo stats per bullet:
10 weight at 50% precraft lightness
varies 7-13 with materials used
1 bulk


Suggested: Skill Tree Alterations

In light of the new and varied roles of different ranged weapons, we should take a look back at how they work with regards to leveling and branches in the skill trees. Bowpistol and dual wield pistols are now unique weapons and rifle and bowrifle also split significantly in their function. Switching AoE guns to be weight limited should improve the ease of leveling those weapons and perhaps are worthy of an earlier split.

Here is the suggestion:

Ranged Fight <51
---1 Handed Ranged <101
----------Pistol Skills <151
------------------Pistols
------------------Bowpistol
---2 Handed Ranged <101
----------Rifle Skills <151
-----------------------Sniper
-----------------------Bowrifle
----------Siege Weaponry <151
-----------------------Autolauncher
-----------------------Launcher

In conjunction, ranged craft would need new splits as well. Currently two-handed ranged craft splits at 101 into rifle, launcher, and autolauncher. We would expand this same split to be rifle, bowrifle, autolauncher and launcher. And similarly in the one-handed craft tree pistol and bowpistol would split at lvl 101 into their own unique craft branches.

Now, in light of this, we realize we will have a problem converting player's current skill levels to the new tree. But lets offer this: the new bowpistol and bowrifle are most like the current ranged system we have today. Dual pistols and sniper rifle are vastly new and different in a couple ways. Therefore, it seems most appropriate that player's current lvls in both fight and craft would directly translate to bow levels in the new system. We shall consider dual pistols and sniper rifles completely new skills for everyone to train anew from the tree splits. As for the lower split off to siege weaponry, in order to accomplish that transition without removing anyones previous effort, current rifle skills up to 151 will be duplicated as siege skills as well.

Lets do an example. Player Y is currently lvl 175 in pistol fight and 120 in rifle fight. Under the transition rules, they would become: lvl 175 Bowpistol, lvl 151 Pistols, lvl 120 Rifle Skills and also lvl 120 Siege Weaponry

As for craft, its simpler that all levels remain the same, except new skills are opened at lvl 101 for all who've reached that split. These players will be 101 in the new skills of Pistol Craft and Rifle Craft if they've reached lvl 101 in both 2H and 1H ranged crafting (they may keep any HQ plans they already have even though they won't open to new people until 150 in the respective skills.)


Additional Melee Suggestions

In examining the mechanics of combat for the above reccomendations, its obvious one-handed melee needs to be brought up to par with the rest of the weapons in terms of completeness. The total lack of modifiers is glaring. To maintain balance with all other forms of melee, we offer the following suggestions for one-handed melee modifiers, including daggers. They are merely shifts in the ranges of the current mods on 2H weapons.

1H melee
Max weapon damage: 367
Max damage per minute: 28626
Adv dodge mod: 10 to -10
Adv parry mod: 10 to -10
Dodge mod: -10 to 10
Parry mod: -10 to 10
except sword which would be 0 to 20

Daggers
(Dagger damage/speed needs more intensive inspection)
Adv parry mod: 20 to 0
Adv dodge mod: 0 to -20
Dodge mod: -5 to 5
Parry mod: -10 to 0


Reference

2H axe/mace
Max weapon damage: 662
Max damage per minute: 35748
Adv dodge mod: 20 to 0
Adv parry mod: 0 to -20
Dodge mod: -20 to 0
Parry mod: -10 to 10

2H pike
Max weapon damage: 441
Max damage per minute: 29106
Adv dodge mod: 20 to 0
Adv parry mod: 0 to -20
Dodge mod: -20 to 0
Parry mod: -10 to 10

2H sword
Max weapon damage: 552
Max damage per minute: 33120
Adv dodge mod: 20 to 0
Adv parry mod: 0 to -20
Dodge mod: -20 to 0
Parry mod: 0 to 20

Elemental magic
Max damage: 2850 (without time credits)
Speed: 40hpm
Max damage per minute: 114000

[ajsuk]

Bloody well thought out I say!

You only missing one thing... We need blow, gun twirl & holster slotting animations on those duel pistols!

Here Nevrax, all the hard works been done for ya, not just impliment it.

[zangan]

Great ideas and well thought out!

Actually would make me thing about taking up range. I want to snipe stuff across lakes and stuff.

*Implement these!!*

Also. I an interview with Ryzom's creator, forgot name and link sorry, he mentions implementing weapons such as michine guns and heavier weapons that require 2 players to wield one. How could we use this? Could lead to some interesting gameplay.

Oh, and if Karavan gets laser guns, then Kami get mind-control magic!
And neutrals get....umm......*thinks* The power of *huggles*!

Edit: Sorry I got a bit off topic towards the end...couldn't resist

[thurgond]

New Skill: Focus Shot

The strength of ranged weapons is their mobility, but they suffer greatly in damage because of it and it means they can't offer significantly as a damage dealer to a team (which stay stationary so no mobility benefit) This skill, Focus Shot, would be useable by any gun except launcher/autolauncher. It will significantly increase their damage without overpowering ranged in general.

How it works- while performing a Focus Shot, your damage is increased to 2.5 times listed ammo damage. However, your mobility is removed. You can not run, and in fact can be interrupted. Consider it exactly like casting a spell. If you take a physical damage attack, the level of the attack is checked against your level in the ranged weapon you're using to determine chance of interrupt.There is no way to decrease your chance of interrupt. You can NOT dodge or parry while performing a Focus Shot. The shot actually fires at the completion of the action, not the beginning like shooting usually works. Focus shot can NOT be combined with increased hit rate, you will be using default attack speed.

I'd like to propose a variation on this that could help with both ammo cost/consumption and stamina usage. I'd call it aimed shot since focus is what you use in foraging.

As above, an aimed shot would have to be used standing still, and not combined with hit rate. Damage would start at two times base damage, and there would be a time penalty that would double the time of the action. Additional levels of aimed shot would up the damage and decrease the time penalty so that at max level there would 3x damage and a 1.5x time penalty. This would have the effect of doubling the DPS at max skill. In practice, this would only be used for pulling and maybe a second shot solo, but in a group you could use it constantly, or until you got aggro. It would halve or better ammo consumption, so you could use ranged for much longer in grind session.

An aimed shot could also be combined with aim-at bricks which would make building ranged stanza's more interesting.