OP battle, PvP the way it is!

[grimjim]

I do not think that attempting to limit those who are happy with the game as it stands is the answer, we're playing the content as nevrax intended, and as we enjoy it. The fact that this alienates some people is a fault on the part of nevrax and not us as far as im concerned. They should be attempting to cater for everyone equally, not us. Otherwise the whole concept of a faction war is null and void.

You can argue that the responsibility lies with the community, but if that is true, then you're expecting the gamers who are currently quite content to effectively destroy there own content, to make others marginally more happy with a system that wasnt designed to cater for them in the first place.

Anyway, we could disagree on this all year....heh and I have a feeling we will

Well I can try to clarify some of this because a lot of it seems to be misconception.

I'm not talking about limiting anyone. The OPs as they are are here, if they get expanded with more options, different ways to take them and so on all for the better. Mostly I argue that there should be alternate - less efficient but non-PvP ways to get access to the content of the OPs.

We don't know if you're playing the content 'as Nevrax intended' because there's been contradictory indication on that matter. The mechanic is GvG, its turned out FvF, the initial descriptions made everyone think they'd be something other than they are, they're nothing like the manual but earlier they were described as guild things, then the loading text implied they were FvF. So saying 'using as intended' feels like a bit of a cop-out.

I agree that some of the fault lies with Nevrax, we have the ring now, which is nice and I love but that's an overall tool for everyone, at least once the rest of the described things are patched into it. The Kitin nest is a step in the right direction but I worry that'll end up appealing more to the acheiver/competitor types again that go after Aen constantly and appreciate the PvP more.

I DO think its down to the community to make up for these lacks. There was a pause in the KA onslaught for a while which allegedly was down to these concerns, similarly I think a lot of the shift to aiding the Kami and the rise of Tryker nationalism in the game (which has been good RP fodder) has been a reaction to this imbalance but its taken all of that - all good examples of community concern - to just stop the KA advance.

I don't think anyone really thinks it would be good for the server or the game if every OP belonged to a single faction which means there is some idea of restraint in everyone, somewhere.

Restraint doesn't destroy the parts that people love, its just using them responsibly. Just because the mechanics or rules allow something to happen doesn't necessarily mean its the best idea if it does.

[rundll32]

I'm not talking about limiting anyone. The OPs as they are are here, if they get expanded with more options, different ways to take them and so on all for the better. Mostly I argue that there should be alternate - less efficient but non-PvP ways to get access to the content of the OPs.

Agreed.

We don't know if you're playing the content 'as Nevrax intended' because there's been contradictory indication on that matter. The mechanic is GvG, its turned out FvF, the initial descriptions made everyone think they'd be something other than they are, they're nothing like the manual but earlier they were described as guild things, then the loading text implied they were FvF. So saying 'using as intended' feels like a bit of a cop-out.

The mechanic isnt gvg, otherwise other guilds wouldnt be able to join in. They were released shortly after the old lands faction versus faction event which I would argue set the tone for things to come.

I don't think anyone really thinks it would be good for the server or the game if every OP belonged to a single faction which means there is some idea of restraint in everyone, somewhere.

I agree.

Restraint doesn't destroy the parts that people love, its just using them responsibly. Just because the mechanics or rules allow something to happen doesn't necessarily mean its the best idea if it does.

Agreed, ish. We seem to have stumbled into a much wider argument here than I was originally intending. I was initially arguing that outpost controlling guilds should have the right to choose wether to defend their resources using their allies or on a gvg basis, an idea that you appear to dislike? I can see the benefits for both courses, guild versus guild/allies verus allies, I just think that ultimately its the owning guilds decision, and shouldnt come down to 'restraint and responsibility' and/or any of the above.

[targosz]

Agreed.



I agree.



Agreed, ish.

Runnie- are you ill or something ? hihihi

[grimjim]

The mechanic isnt gvg, otherwise other guilds wouldnt be able to join in. They were released shortly after the old lands faction versus faction event which I would argue set the tone for things to come.

The ownership is by guild, not by faction. The resources etc go to the guild, not the faction. Etc, etc. That it came after Ep2 is as much chance as anything else, we know how long they were in development for I don't think Ep2 is any sort of guide as to what was intended for the OPs. If they'd come out before it things may have developed very differently.

Agreed, ish. We seem to have stumbled into a much wider argument here than I was originally intending. I was initially arguing that outpost controlling guilds should have the right to choose wether to defend their resources using their allies or on a gvg basis, an idea that you appear to dislike? I can see the benefits for both courses, guild versus guild/allies verus allies, I just think that ultimately its the owning guilds decision, and shouldnt come down to 'restraint and responsibility' and/or any of the above.

I think every OP battle being a huge standing army faction fight is counterproductive and... well... not fun. I've managed to wring some enjoyment out of PvP since I've not been invested in the outcome any more but even I, an avowed PvP hater, would have more fun if there were some actual tactics involved! This isn't just a factional problem, its a mage problem as well amongst other things, but smaller numbers involved might make tactics and individual actions a bit more... dare I say... fun?

My objection to the specific situation that kicked off all this was the same as Zahans really. Its a tiny guild holding a pretty strong OP because they're propped up by a huge alliance. Neither guild involved here was particularly huge and it might have been fun and interesting to see how an actual GvG battle turned out, it would have been good fodder for discussion as well. It felt like the reasons given for bowing out were somewhat petulant, it wasn't as if any member of the KA would go short of crystals or materials. It seemed like an offer given in good faith turned down for no good reason.

[sehracii]

My objection to the specific situation that kicked off all this was the same as Zahans really. Its a tiny guild holding a pretty strong OP because they're propped up by a huge alliance.

They're not the only "tiny" guild in an outpost that level. I'm quite sure there is an even smaller guild holding one without being in the huge alliance and no one seems to decry that situation.

[rundll32]

Even so, the mechanic cant really be called gvg when I dont think there has been a single gvg battle. Plus the fact that 9 maybe even 10 out of ten guilds would struggle hugely trying to take a q200/250 op from guards and another guild on their own.

Youre right, gvg would of been interesting to watch, but its extremely easy to say that from the sidelines, not being an outpost owner yourself. Though I appreciate that was through choice. The thing that narked me about the whole thread was that GoJ shouldnt have felt that they had to make 'excuses' or justify not accepting, they were always going to sound weak or petulent regardless of how they responded because at the end of the day, the outposts are there to be controlled and quarelled over, thats the idea, so they want to keep theirs just as much as the next guild.

Like I said previsouly ootn had been considering offering a gvg challenge, but after a few guild discussions we decided the chances of anyone accepting would be slim to zero, because there is no incentive for a defending guild to increase the risk of losing their resources. Maybe a system whereby a guild versus guild battle would result in a slighty higher rate of cat/mat production for the winner would be interesting, who knows.

[riveit]

My objection to the specific situation that kicked off all this was the same as Zahans really. Its a tiny guild holding a pretty strong OP because they're propped up by a huge alliance. Neither guild involved here was particularly huge and it might have been fun and interesting to see how an actual GvG battle turned out, it would have been good fodder for discussion as well. It felt like the reasons given for bowing out were somewhat petulant, it wasn't as if any member of the KA would go short of crystals or materials. It seemed like an offer given in good faith turned down for no good reason.

Zahan was very wrong in his count of the current membership of GoJ. However, I find it ironic that he and many others were perfectly happy to prop up six homins in a q250 outpost so many months ago. It is nice to see that the concept of homin economic equality has progressed.

As for the GvG challenge, it might have had a much better chance of success if it was given more than 3 minutes notice and then quickly followed by a scorching forum flamefest.

[iphdrunk]

Its a tiny guild holding a pretty strong OP because they're propped up by a huge alliance

That, versus a tiny guild never being able to own an outpost due to the inability from the system to manage Guild alliances?

the choice is clear to me. And it is also about choice. With the first method, the possibility is there, and it's up to players to decide. I'm a bit shocked that you want to add more aritificial constraints to the game. Make no mistake, I don't have and outpost and I would like to have one, yet I prefer the current system to the GvG one. And I will not even go into the "our guild is bigger then deserves an outpost more", causing the dismise of smallish guilds and the snow ball effect you seem to be against in other threads.

[danlufan]

I think we all agree to disagree on this matter.

Most of us are coming to sort of the same conclusion, maybe we will see more GvG, mainly because it could be fun, and because it CAN happen, if both sides agree.

[tylarth]

i stand against GvG as a trend. simply as it excludes others from the OP content, which is not a frequent thing as it is. OP battle are the only real incentive to have meaning to all the lvls and the only real avenue of faction related meaningful battles. the current system encourages alliances and multi guild cooperation and diplomacy, GvG would reverse this trend.