The Kami vs Karavan situation?

[mrshad]

Not at all. It's very true and born out by... well, spend five minutes in game.

I've been playing since just after release, I stand by my observations. Team Kami has done very little to prove me wrong.

The religions are more akin to ideologies, socialism/capitalism, mutualism/individualism, ecology/industry.
And that's where the cultural bias comes into play.

Possibly, but then those the identify with the "Kill those that disagree with you" ideology are bound to be more aggresive, don't you think?

Which are supposed to be defensive actions to protect the planet and on a world where death means very little isn't that much of a problem.

umm...GrimJim...the KAMI KILL HOMINS. In E2, the urged thier followers to kill homins. Whether or not death has meaning is secondary to the point that kami folowers are predisposed to killing homins.

... but they are outweighed by the smack talkers, gloaters, aggro draggers and other problem children on the Karavan side.

Do you go to the same OP battles that I do? Have you written a client mod that filters out 90% of region chat that comes from team kami members? Rabid Kami problem children rapidly get added to my ignore list, and there is still much more trash coming from team kami than from team jena. Whatever it is you are taking, perhaps you could share?

It may be a simple factor of size but its my feeling from observations since Ep2 that it is down to the draw of the lore of the particular factions. The Karavan are definately set up to be the 'villains' and the contributes to the a**hat draw.

Did you miss the "Go and kill the Karavan followers" proclaimation in EP2? Or the part where Ma-Duk decided that "protecting Atys" wasn't that bigadeal anymore, so he toggled off Kami-Tolerance for a bit?
If there is villainous side that draws a**hats, it isn't team jena.

Because in a Kami friendly timezone IF they pull in absolutely everything they can just about match the Karavan, just. Outside their timezone, they can't, at all. This has been consitently the case since Ep2 but then the sides were fairly even with dominance swinging back and forth with time. Now it only swings from dominance to parity.

Team Kami rolled right over the defenders of Zo-Kian. I don't think Team Jena won a single round until TH12. It is hardly parity if conditons are perfect for team kami, it is a complete blowout. Yes, the defense phase was equally unbalanced the other direction, but those were conditions perfect for team Jena (we were defending, timed for the alliance to show up, the alliance responded in large numbers, etc...). And that is my entire point about timezones, the sword cuts both ways evenly, which is why it is fair.

[aardnebb]

Do you go to the same OP battles that I do? Have you written a client mod that filters out 90% of region chat that comes from team kami members? Rabid Kami problem children rapidly get added to my ignore list, and there is still much more trash coming from team kami than from team jena. Whatever it is you are taking, perhaps you could share?


Team Kami rolled right over the defenders of Zo-Kian. I don't think Team Jena won a single round until TH12. It is hardly parity if conditons are perfect for team kami, it is a complete blowout. Yes, the defense phase was equally unbalanced the other direction, but those were conditions perfect for team Jena (we were defending, timed for the alliance to show up, the alliance responded in large numbers, etc...). And that is my entire point about timezones, the sword cuts both ways evenly, which is why it is fair.

Point 1. I guess you go to different OP battles than me _and_ Grimjim.

Point 2. That was pretty exceptional eh? I mean if the Kami did that every time there would be _far_ more defense rounds on Kara OPs...

Blinkered views mrshad.

[sx4rlet]

oh please......

[grimjim]

Possibly, but then those the identify with the "Kill those that disagree with you" ideology are bound to be more aggresive, don't you think?

Not at all. Its a defensive creed. The violent and expansionistic cultures on Atys are Karavan and Matis.

umm...GrimJim...the KAMI KILL HOMINS. In E2, the urged thier followers to kill homins. Whether or not death has meaning is secondary to the point that kami folowers are predisposed to killing homins.

And vice versa though, aside from lore the Karavan side was much more aggressive during the whole episode and responsible for the digger-truces being broken approximately 75% of the time.

I'll agree that they screwed up the presentation of the Kami throughout that episode and that's what finally confirmed my character's neutrality and independence.

Do you go to the same OP battles that I do? Have you written a client mod that filters out 90% of region chat that comes from team kami members? Rabid Kami problem children rapidly get added to my ignore list, and there is still much more trash coming from team kami than from team jena. Whatever it is you are taking, perhaps you could share?

Did you miss the "Go and kill the Karavan followers" proclaimation in EP2? Or the part where Ma-Duk decided that "protecting Atys" wasn't that bigadeal anymore, so he toggled off Kami-Tolerance for a bit? If there is villainous side that draws a**hats, it isn't team jena.

I think you're suffering from selective deafness. Usually that affects grandmothers who are asked to pass the peas or to get out of the way of the automatic doors at supermarkets.

Team Kami rolled right over the defenders of Zo-Kian. I don't think Team Jena won a single round until TH12. It is hardly parity if conditons are perfect for team kami, it is a complete blowout. Yes, the defense phase was equally unbalanced the other direction, but those were conditions perfect for team Jena (we were defending, timed for the alliance to show up, the alliance responded in large numbers, etc...). And that is my entire point about timezones, the sword cuts both ways evenly, which is why it is fair.

And it still wasn't enough because on the defense phase they were hideously outnumbers and no, not by a comparable amount. The sword doesn't cut both ways at all. It did during Ep2, but not really since.

As to what I'm 'taking' its reason and objectivity. A wonderful natural high that promotes clear thinking.

Listen.

These are FICTIONAL factions, they're completely meaningless other than as an artificial divide for competetive based gaming (which is the blummin' antithesis of RPGing in the first place). There is no point in being 'loyal' to one side or the other. I have no interest in promoting one side over the other, other than a desire to see a reasonable balance that allows the game to continue.

This isn't the Stanford Prison experiment though it seems some people like to act OOC as if they were of their IC faction :/
http://www.prisonexp.org/

[mrshad]

what utter balls...............I'm sorry but this tops your usual drivel by a mile

You're not sorry, and it doesn't matter. You are among the Kamist that I respect.

we are no longer outnumbered 5to1 because a few of us worked hard to convince the others that outpost battles were worth attending and that the previous smack talk and griefing actions from the karavan side that put so many of them off could be ignored. A few of us worked hard to show them outpost battles could be fun.

And you have earned a great deal of praise for that hard work, even from the members of Team Jena. But, really, "griefing actions from the karavan side?" We didn't enact the Yrkanis Defence Act because team kami was playing nice. Be serious.

you dont see how the timezone issue makes a conflict unfair because it works to your advantage.

Again, it works both way. Don't even try to pretend that you schedule your attack phases to match times that members of team jena can show up.

There is no advantage to either side, unless two things are true:

1)There are significantly more NA players than Euro players (which I am pretty sure isn't the case).

2)The factions break pretty much along geographical lines (which might actually be true, but I certianly haven't taken a survey).

on the whole I am mildy happier with how the community handles outposts as a whole and there has been next to no bad incidents in the last 3-4 battles.

Agreed (aside from some quirkiness with healings and teleportations and such that were out of player control)

[grimjim]

1)There are significantly more NA players than Euro players (which I am pretty sure isn't the case).

2)The factions break pretty much along geographical lines (which might actually be true, but I certianly haven't taken a survey).

There is a significant concentration of Karavan players within North America while the Europeans tend to seem to favour the Kami.

There are more Karavan overall which gives them more capacity to soak up even out of hours fighting, without a truly heroic effort on the part of the Kami side (heroic as in scale) while the Karavan can also field, with less effort, a much more significant force during the weak european hours.

It is a complex interplay of different effects which also includes aesthetics, familiarity, the appeal of in game philosophies to different playstyles, level design and the positive feedback loop caused by outpost ownership and 'social gravity'.

[dakhound]

And you have earned a great deal of praise for that hard work, even from the members of Team Jena. But, really, "griefing actions from the karavan side?" We didn't enact the Yrkanis Defence Act because team kami was playing nice. Be serious.

there was much bad behaviour on both sides and many chose to leave or just not to attend because of it (reworded). I wasnt talking about yrk PvP tho btw mainly OP's, yrk PvP as I've stated before is easily avoidable and no-one misses out for not taking part like outposts.

Again, it works both way. Don't even try to pretend that you schedule your attack phases to match times that members of team jena can show up.
There is no advantage to either side, unless two things are true:
1)There are significantly more NA players than Euro players (which I am pretty sure isn't the case).
2)The factions break pretty much along geographical lines (which might actually be true, but I certianly haven't taken a survey).

I dont say we try to do it at a convenient time for you, thats quite obviously untrue and would be silly, what my point is, is that your faction is capable of matching us in the euro timezone AND the american one.

the zo-kian was a one off brought about from many things going right for us and a lower than usual turnout from the kara

[mrshad]

Point 1. I guess you go to different OP battles than me _and_ Grimjim.

Probably true, after all, the timezone complaints wouldn't have any teeth if that weren't the case. I rarely catch any of you mercs online.

Point 2. That was pretty exceptional eh? I mean if the Kami did that every time there would be _far_ more defense rounds on Kara OPs...

Getting to a defense phase at all is pretty exceptional, isn't it? Before Zo-Kain, I don't remember that last one.

Blinkered views mrshad.

uhh..thanks?

Listen.

These are FICTIONAL factions, they're completely meaningless other than as an artificial divide for competetive based gaming (which is the blummin' antithesis of RPGing in the first place). There is no point in being 'loyal' to one side or the other. I have no interest in promoting one side over the other, other than a desire to see a reasonable balance that allows the game to continue.

This isn't the Stanford Prison experiment though it seems some people like to act OOC as if they were of their IC faction :/

Yes, they are make-belive sides. My only stake is that the side are accuratly represented. A resonable balance is good. Truth in reporting is better. These forums are wildly biased toward team kami. Most of team jena don't even show up here. That allows obviously false statements like this:

* The Karavan ethics/style appeal more to PvP oriented players and more competition/PvP oriented players.
* Karavan ethics/rp appeal more to the more competition/PvP oriented US playstyle. (Contributing to the timezone problem).

..to go unchallenged.

The IC/OOC mix in this thread is confusing, but the thread itself is wide open on the subject. Even if I were lore neutral, the negative IG actions of the Kami followers would bias me against them. Add that to the kami NPC tendancy to kill harvesters and thier woeful behavior in E2 (both lore-based points), and I just don't see how team kami is a reasonable choice.

(and the argument that competition is a stake in the heart of RP is an interesting one. I don't agree with it, neccisarily, as I see conflict a part of drama, and drama a part of any good story, and a good story as being essential to RP. But, in MMOs PvP combat tends to kill RP, as players do what they must to survive PvP attacks; often causing them to sacrifice RP consitency. Totally out of scope of this thread, but an interesting conversation to have)

[sidusar]

Well, I'll inject a hint of worry there about R2.
I realise we've only got a little version at the moment without all the critters etc but people don't seem to have gone buck wild over it yet. I'm hoping people get more into it with the full release.

Ehm... just a little remark here.

I've spent every evening in the R2 editor since it's pre-release a week ago. Going over all the options, learning how everything works, studying the behavior of the mobs and npcs and their reactions to events, learning the limitations of what can and can't be done. And only today, after about 30 hours spent in the editor, have I finally got just Act 1 of my first scenario working... most of the time. And still somewhat dumbed down from my original idea. I've lost hours just trying to resolve situations like [post=348480]this[/post].

So I really can't blame the playerbase for not yet having dozens of scenarios ready

And now back to our regular PvP debate...

[oldmess]

And now back to our regular PvP debate...

No thanks. Hijack this thread again please.