One year - Changes and lack of changes WTF

[rushin]

I think Morgaine you are understating the population increase recently, as you mentioned yourself you hardly play and only popped back for a couple of weeks? (never saw you around). Our guild has 40+ active members, we don’t recruit hard but still have a steady stream of people coming and staying. Cities of Intuition, generally considered the least populated zone, has a lot more people running around than it did a few months ago, there are several new Zorai guilds that seem to be doing pretty well. There have been a few times in the last week or two where we’ve been unable to find a hunting spot in Void with 50+ people in the region. So I think its not all doom and gloom.

However much it winds me up people moaning needlessly on forums I try to keep my comments to a minimum or even better not read the posts (although sometimes the ‘post’ button gets clicked before reason stops me). As incredulous as it seems I love this game, I have a lot of fun, I’ve been playing without a break for 2 years and I still have a million things to do. I can’t understand why people who are unhappy with something need to try and gain the popular support of others or post repeatedly the same complaints month after month, year after year. Fanboys and girls who do the opposite are annoying as well, but not half as damaging to the game; there is an idiom involving shooting oneself in the foot that might be worthwhile thinking about.

What is there to achieve by moaning? Not just here but in life generally… If you don’t like something don’t do it. Simple really. If you think the population is too small then find a game with a bigger one, if you find the development too slow find a game with a bigger budget, but let people who enjoy their time here enjoy it and not suffer reading the same tired rants time after time.

[raynes]

I disagree here. I believe budget has everything to do with it. Nevrax is still on very thin ice finacially.

If they had someone working on the outposts or someone working on the encylopedia, there is no difference in budget. That is why I don't think budget has as much to do with Ryzoms problems as people say.

[raynes]

As you can see above, I came to precisely the opposite conclusion. I think chasing the general demographic has profoundly harmed Ryzom and resulted in a loss of vision.

Quests - completely inappropriate for Ryzom in standard format and ideas. R2 will allow players to make and present 'quests' which fills this gap up quite a bit and will also allow for more specialised events, IMO. This is all to the good. The closest thing would be more ency missions, which we all hope are forthcoming I'm sure.

Raids - Completely inappropriate again, but you're getting your wish with the Kitin lair. I'm holding my breath to see how it's executed but 'phat lewt' will annihilate much of what makes the game work.

Bosses - See above.

I think Silan needs to be more explicit about what the mainland is and isn't though. Honestly, Ryzom cannot compete for the same middle ground that WoW, EQ2 etc battle over, there aren't the resources to do so. Ryzom's hope is in finding a solid niche (That held by pre NGE Starwars Galaxies pretty much) and doing it really well.

Raid events that forward the storyline more would, of course, be welcome. That's different to static, repeatable quests and raids.

You are right, we are polar opposites. Let me explain why you are wrong. To prove my point all you have to do is look at the game population. It's small, really small. If what you suggest were true, then the lack of all the things I suggeted would have brought massive amounts of players. You know as well as I do, that has not happened.

You say quests are completely inappropriate, yet you go on to talk about ency missions and you hope there are more forthcoming. If missions are inappropiate why do you need those?

In any game where you have people playing for hours upon hours each day you need to provide a variety of things to do. Ryzom does not have that. In Ryzom you can run tasks which are the same thing over and over. You can harvest, fight, or craft. This is not enough to keep people interested day after day after day. The purpose of unique quests, bosses, and raids are to provide long term players something different to do after playing for 365 days in a row.

The problem isn't that Silan doesn't represent the game. The problem is that the game isn't like Silan. Why do you think the new starter area got rave reviews? Why do you think more people have stayed when playing the new starter island and not the old ones?

The Kitin Lair is being put in so that upper level players have something to do besides kill the same stuff they have for 200 levels before. It's not to ruin the game, it's not to kill what makes Ryzom unique, it's to keep people busy.

I also never said that Ryzom should compete for the same ground as EQ2 or WoW. They need more players. In order to get playes and keep them, there needs to be a variety of things to do and Ryzom fails in that area. Telling people "It does have a variety of things to do, it's a sandbox game. After you have played for a year killing things for 200 levels, you can take part in the roleplaying event "Atys Idol" and that's new" is just is not going to cut it.

If you can think of things they can do besides quests, bosses, and raid for activites to keep players busy please share them. Real things, not "roleplay" things. Otherwise I am sticking to my point that Ryzom needs more of what makes other MMO's interesting.

[raynes]

If you don’t like something don’t do it.

No, if you are unhappy about something you express your unhappiness.

[zanthar]

I agree with raynes

they aint added much
what they have added isnt complete/well thought out
they have given up on somethings to move onto sparkly thing

still love it tho

Please take what I have to say with a grain of salt as it is not intended to offend anyone but please count your blessings! This game is almost bug free. The bugs that I have encountered are minimal at best compared to the game play cramping bugs in Star Wars Galaxies where whole quests maybe gimped anywhere along the the story line of the Quest and I mean you can not finish the quest it is so bad! They also have dumbed that game down soo bad, to try to attract the WOW kiddies and the like, that the older vets such as myself that took a break came back to a stripped down verision of it's fromer glory known as the NGE! Where they took away the 36 professions and left only 9, and when they did that they started giving away a severly crippled version of Jedi with a click of the mouse, where as you used to have to have to work for that most coveted profession! But I digress I have only been in game since early August and left Star Wars Galaxies, which I was a 34 month paying veteran, on the 22nd of the same month so my view is new and fresh. And I can agree that they may not have added the kinds of things you wanted or thought necissary, but in thier defence they are working on a limited budget! Please remember that these are just my thoughts!

[grimjim]

You are right, we are polar opposites. Let me explain why you are wrong. To prove my point all you have to do is look at the game population. It's small, really small. If what you suggest were true, then the lack of all the things I suggeted would have brought massive amounts of players. You know as well as I do, that has not happened.

And let me explain why you're wrong

I look at the game now and I see a recovery in player numbers. Why? Silan and R2. Silan because it addressed a genuine problem in the game - the starter areas and lack of a decent trial (Though it is still flawed) R2 because it is unique, interesting and a return to the initial vision of Ryzom.

Then I look back at the things that have harmed the game and I see attempts at adding conventional type content into the game that hit three snags.

1. P'ed off the original sign-ups, driving many of them away.
2. Failed to satisfy the people it was aimed at in any meaningful way.
3. Failed to attract new players who were better served by more polished versions of that content elsewhere.

The things you've suggested have, historically in Ryzom, driven people away, not brought them in. Now that a fundamental problem has been addressed and something innovative and different has been brought in, surprise surprise, numbers are back up again.

You say quests are completely inappropriate, yet you go on to talk about ency missions and you hope there are more forthcoming. If missions are inappropiate why do you need those?

There's a difference between missions, quests and encyclopaedia quests.

1. Missions - These are repeatable fedex/kill tasks that make sense to be repeatedly done.
2. Quests - These are storylines that would be fine in single player games but in multiplayer games quickly become ridiculous. How many times does that guy's wife need to be saved from the goblins before she buys an effin' clue about wandering in strange alleys after dark?!? It is a strength of Ryzom that it does not do these.
3. Encylopaedia Quests - These are presented more as rites of passage, ordeals to undergo to get new knowledge. These make sense in such a way to be repeatable by different players and the rewards help to individualise and differentiate characters. Once there are more of them hopefully we'll start to see some race/faction/civilisation diversification and characterisation, which will be nice.

In any game where you have people playing for hours upon hours each day you need to provide a variety of things to do. Ryzom does not have that. In Ryzom you can run tasks which are the same thing over and over. You can harvest, fight, or craft. This is not enough to keep people interested day after day after day. The purpose of unique quests, bosses, and raids are to provide long term players something different to do after playing for 365 days in a row.

With Ryzom you get out what you put in, that's now even more true with the ring. If you lack imagination and expect to be fed things on a plate then you're not going to get anywhere but doing that spoonfeeding would be to eliminate much of what makes Atys great. Facilitating players to create their own content and play (as with R2) would be a much better approach here.

You say these things provide something different? They don't. No producer can keep up producing enough content of those types to make people happy. It's a blind alley. Even WoW with all its cash can't provide a decent 'endgame' of the type you propose. Players and guides have already done wonders with the limited sandbox that Ryzom was, now R2 expands that further and it would be far more valuable to the game as a whole to continue to facilitate open, creative content than to provide static things of the type you describe.

The problem isn't that Silan doesn't represent the game. The problem is that the game isn't like Silan. Why do you think the new starter area got rave reviews? Why do you think more people have stayed when playing the new starter island and not the old ones?

The Kitin Lair is being put in so that upper level players have something to do besides kill the same stuff they have for 200 levels before. It's not to ruin the game, it's not to kill what makes Ryzom unique, it's to keep people busy.

I also never said that Ryzom should compete for the same ground as EQ2 or WoW. They need more players. In order to get playes and keep them, there needs to be a variety of things to do and Ryzom fails in that area. Telling people "It does have a variety of things to do, it's a sandbox game. After you have played for a year killing things for 200 levels, you can take part in the roleplaying event "Atys Idol" and that's new" is just is not going to cut it.

Except it has cut it for the population for two years and now they've got the tools to do more with it. There is a variety limited only, really, by the effort and imagination you're willing to put in. Silan got rave reviews because it is free and because Ryzom is visually stunning and has a good skill system, those are the main reasons. It also solved the starter islands problem, the trick is retaining the people that come across to the mainland now and I don't think that's helped by the mischaracterisation that Silan creates though, hopefully, enough people will get hooked on the real game.

If you can think of things they can do besides quests, bosses, and raid for activites to keep players busy please share them. Real things, not "roleplay" things. Otherwise I am sticking to my point that Ryzom needs more of what makes other MMO's interesting.

Roleplay IS 'real things' and I'd facilitate it more. I would broaden the more open ended content and add more of it. I would add RP props, I would rapidly expand and open up R2, I would use it to host guide events, I'd get the invasions going again. Ryzom shines where the players get to participate in live events and make a genuine difference, that can't be done with 'quest', 'raid' or 'boss' content of the type you describe. I'd add mounts, clothes, even the entertainer skill tree someone talked about. I'd do more to make it a world and I'd avoid raids, quests and phat lewt like the blummin' plague. I'd also finish outposts and in a new wave of outpost activations would introduce different ways to take them. I'd also reactivate faction points but make them awardable through Kami/Kara tasks as well as PvP.

Lots of things that we already have or that could be expanded in an openended fashion.

[grimjim]

Zanthar makes the best example I can think of. SWG had a loyal playerbase, a sandboxish game system, a living world with a lot of acclaim and they tossed it all away to pursue the WoW buck. Now their servers are gutted, they have the enmity of their entire old playerbase constantly churning bad publicity - not only for the game, but for the company.

Do we want the same thing to happen to Ryzom?

I don't think so.

[sx4rlet]

If they had someone working on the outposts or someone working on the encylopedia, there is no difference in budget. That is why I don't think budget has as much to do with Ryzoms problems as people say.

I think I can understand you here. Sometimes I got the idea Nevrax was like a person with a short attention span, who started all kind of nice and cool ideas, but never finished them.

I am happy they stopped that at least and finish what they start nowadays (like EP2, outposts, ROS and R2, even if those werent what I hoped those things would be...)

[rothimar]

Actually... I would attribute a lot of the chaos with SWG to the fact hat SoE took over running/developing it. They have a habit of bad habits which ruin their games rather badly.

Bringing some traditional MMORPG concepts without removing the quality of the existing style of play can be done. And... taking a look at the RoS, combined with the introduction of the Ring (remember the developers are going to be using it too), and you have the foundation of more quest based content.

RoS is an introduction and tutorial for new players. Why would they design RoS to completely misinform players of the life on mainland Atys? It is my opinion that mainland will more than likely begin to resemble RoS a little more with each update.

Zanthar makes the best example I can think of. SWG had a loyal playerbase, a sandboxish game system, a living world with a lot of acclaim and they tossed it all away to pursue the WoW buck. Now their servers are gutted, they have the enmity of their entire old playerbase constantly churning bad publicity - not only for the game, but for the company.

Do we want the same thing to happen to Ryzom?

I don't think so.

[sx4rlet]

2. Quests - These are storylines that would be fine in single player games but in multiplayer games quickly become ridiculous. How many times does that guy's wife need to be saved from the goblins before she buys an effin' clue about wandering in strange alleys after dark?!? It is a strength of Ryzom that it does not do these.

This is true, but only if you look at the games that are totally quest-driven.

In the past I played 2 games that had some kind of episodes, where you could do a certain quest for the storyline. Sure it was the same quest for all players, although there were different choices you could make for them.
The total amount of players that did the quest for side a and for side b, gave the direction of the next episode. This way, I really felt involved in the story.

(But I agree, dont make the game quest driven, the way you decribe it above.)