One year - Changes and lack of changes WTF

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vguerin
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Re: One year - Changes and lack of changes WTF

Post by vguerin »

iphdrunk wrote:Finally, I should not rehash that (although this "policy" has changed a lot in the last months) there have been huge differences between what was promised and what was delivered -- maybe our fault for not being able to see the trees while being shown the forest? -- and some players stuck to that promise, and waited for it to be delivered. At least, this aspect has improved: there are no longer promises of aging&children, new mounts, subaquatic mobs, diplomatic outposts, guild missions, meaningful fame and tribes, angels and demons, 5% of Atys shown, 99 layers of Prime Roots....
That is just a hint of what the young homin has limited or no knowledge about and exactly the type things I was referring to. Those of us that beta'd and stood in one place doing the same action for a whole Atys day to make a report were doing it because we saw a greater vision. The writing of DDC had captivated me and took me away from all my other planned games to immerse myself in Atys. The intelligent plants, seeds, saga (different lands, 8 chapters over 8 years) and how it was intended were thrilling. Much of it is not here, the saga remains on Atys and there is absolutely nothing showing on the horizen to lead us to believe we will ever see any of those things. While we should be in chapter 3 and in another land we are still walking the same paths we started at level one, 2 years ago yesterday.

Is Ryzom bad, absolutely not... I hold my enemies in nearly the same regard as my allies IG because it's the people that make this game worth resubbing for. I miss many of the folks that left over the lack of additions we expected or poor implementation of things that were added. I can myself see some of their reasons, but so far the lack of hope has not got me to give up.

A big part of any game that Rothimar is overlooking because he still see's a shiny new car is that while appealing to new folks is important, it matters not if you're not keeping people around long. Once the "new car" smell goes away, you have to consider a new ride or finding something more to get out of your old one.
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totnkopf
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Re: One year - Changes and lack of changes WTF

Post by totnkopf »

vguerin wrote:Always good to see another old time fanatic (even if you are Kami scum) Raynes... You have contributed more than the glee club ever will but will be fighting an uphill battle here. Like me and others, you will have to resign yourself to a shell of the game that was envisioned and the limitations we are left with as well as "undone" things. If you can live with them (as we all obviously chose to do by resubbing, even tho not satisfied) then stick around. Most of those disagreeing with you don't know what the game that was presented as to us was... just play and enjoy, you won't get any mileage even with valid grievances. We are invisible, thats why there are no responses to anything...
Brutal honesty right there.
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rothimar
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Re: One year - Changes and lack of changes WTF

Post by rothimar »

Well, let me ask you this...

Do you believe the issues with development are due to an uncaring or lazy development staff? Or do you believe the issue is financial?

And more to the point... what can be done to resolve the situation?

I have read many of the older posts on the forums here, I have discussed the situation with a few veteran players, and from what I can determine, it is most likely a case of development budget constraints due to limited revenue intake, and inflated marketing budgets of competing game publishers.

Any ideas?

Ryzom, regardless of the development history, has extreme potential. The community, for the most part, is amazing. If this game means so much to some of you... how do you think the issues which bother some of you can be rectified?
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kuroari
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Re: One year - Changes and lack of changes WTF

Post by kuroari »

Ok, wow i just read all the pages in this thread -something i'venot done in a WHILE and its probably because i had a peanut-butter cookie, red-bull, twix, red-berry passion tea, and PIXIE STICKS all in about an hour - about 3 hours ago - and my sugar-high is only now dying

*blinks rapidly and takes another breath*

Raynes - i read your first post and went "Oh God, another bashing thread - WONDERFUL" but , reading on, i spose i began to understand ya a bit more -

i think i can consider myself an old-timer now (having done the betas, but arriving a year late for retail) and i understand the lack of changes - but its true about the tight budget and all that - not enough develpors and lots of work being done behind-the-scenes ... but also i mean jeez, the RING isnt exactly a 'small feature' and its main purpose i think is a bit vague.. is it a way to allow players to create their own worlds/scenarios... or is it actually the new tools Devs can use to create new content efficeintly, quickly, reliably, and EASILY - and are just letting us play with said tools?

i'm not sure to answer for said question, but either way i think we are going to be attacked by new content over the next few months - with the Kitin lair bieng only the first of many. maybe the content will come from devs, maybe it will come from players - but look at it this way, in only a few months, we got the new noob island (RoS) , the Ring, and Kitin lair - all new completly done and promising upgrades! -RoS was a HUGE hit , even with the issues brought up by many others already. Alpha/Beta-Testers tell us the Ring will be great as well, and the Kitin Lair is looking VERY fun :)

so, bash away for now - but i think we can easily wave away said bashing as 'getting it off the chest' bashing - UNTIL AFTER A FEW MONTHS OF R2.


-just my two cents (and quoting Aristotle+mixing with ryzom deserves a WHOOT!)
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grimjim
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Re: One year - Changes and lack of changes WTF

Post by grimjim »

Here's what I think happened, just IMO of course.

Ryzom already is very unconventional. The appearance and lore of the game is unique, it was - and is - always going to be more of a niche game. There are things that were apparently there - or tested - in beta that aren't in the main game and I don't understand why particularly, sittable furniture and so on, but as with many MMOs Ryzom suffered from being shoved out the door too early and as with those other earlybird games pretty much everything done since then has been reaction and putting out fires.

Problem 1
Ryzom came out, was pushed out the door, at the same time as WoW and EQ2. While it was predictable that this would have smushed Ryzom's uptake (especially with an early-released product) I don't think anyone appreciated quite what a phenomenon WoW would turn out to be. In the long term it may be a good thing, training wheels for new MMO players, some of whom will come to Ryzom. Nevertheless it didn't help that Ryzom was a tad buggy and unpolished when pushed out the door.

Problem 2
Patch one, intended to be a fix for a lot of the niggling problems and gameplay issues with combat was horribly, horribly misjudged and wiped out a huge amount of the playerbase. This compounded the reactive nature of all the changes made since but even though they fixed it within a couple of weeks it was too late and set the stage for later problems.

Problem 3
The server merge. Again, short term thinking. It certainly saved money in the short term and created a more populous and appealing server for new players it has built a ton of long term problems into the English server. The US and European gaming cultures ARE broadly different, the timezone issue and cultural biases in faction selection have caused problems and now everyone's too entangled with each other to seperate again. Another example of reactive, short-term emergency thinking.

Problem 4
Episode 2 - Another misjudging of the playerbase and the needs of the game. While executed MUCH better the sudden and brutal introduction of wholesale PvP was like unleashing Godzilla on the Smurf village. Unexpected and devastating. Where patch 1 killed off a large quantity of players, Episode 2 killed off a lot of quality players. The very cooperative, friendly and RP/Community oriented culture that had sprung up, self sustaining, maintaining and probably keeping Ryzom alive was torn apart by the only new 'content' for ages. The supposed maturity of the community shattered as selfish PvPers emerged to exploit the new mechanics and went crazy, there was no role for neutrals, the Kami were presented as hypocrits, Tryton looked weak and ineffective and there was no truly peaceful way to participate.

Problem 5
The outposts. Again this appears to have been short term and reactive thinking, changing outposts from the vision presented to replace them with a faction war by proxy, only involving PvP and carrying on from Episode 2. Instead of what they could have been the OPs were replaced with rather conventional resource battlegrounds, the similarities with AOs 'Notum Wars' and Jessica's role in both have been noted before. Turning this into a faction war item has also thrown the imbalance between the factions into sharp relief, it is not entirely numerical as part of the problem lies in cultural distinctions between those who choose to play Kami and those who choose to play Karavan (and those who play neutral) but there is an undeniable imbalance.

Problem(?) 6
Ruins of Silan. Actually, this isn't a problem per se, but it has problems. If anyone listened to that recent podcast you can tell that even an experienced game reviewer, who has talked with people in universe and talked to guilds has come away with several, key, false impressions of the mainland. IMO Silan also furthers the shift in playerbase culture already started by Episode 2 and Ouposts.

Problem(?) 7
Ryzom Ring represents (finally) a return to less conventional content and some of the vision that made Ryzom so appealing to its original, sidelined playerbase. Hopefully it'll bring a lot of them back since it provides a way to play without involving oneself in the faction war and PvP and of being creative. While I understand the idea of releasing a simple version and expanding later the previous rate of game expansion tends to make one wary of putting much faith in the R2 system being expanded and completed too early. There are also problems that have been noted by others in that providing a toolset and then restricting people's creativity with that rules set is like giving them a broken pencil. Things like not being able to make animals 'speak' or not being able to fight the Kami or Karavan in scenarios seem minor things but every time someone tries to use the tools and runs into something that they can't do the percieved value drops considerably. Especially when these things seem to be down to arbitrary decisions rather than mechanics. One answer might be the difference between 'strict' and 'loose' scenarios that was previously mentioned.

Future Problems
The Kitin nest and the spires represent conventional content again. The kitin nest is a dungeon and raid scenario, however it is dressed up. This is another 'conventional' game addition and appears to consist of 'phat lewt' which could undermine the crafter economy in the same way the shield problem and Aen armour have - though the bandit bosses appear to be all but abandoned as an idea.

The spires represent a sort of Realm Vs Realm combat overlay but also restrict player movement and freedom as presented. This is another conventional addition (RvR) and further drives the playerbase in a direction counter to that which existed initially.

It will be, perhaps, most interesting to see what's announced next and whether it shows a return to original values (like R2) or a continuance of the populist philosophy.

Analysis
Most of the last two years has been reactive on Ryzom's part down to a not-so-good and poorly timed launch. Much of the initial time appears to have been spent making the basic game actually work properly live and since then most of the additions and changes have been attempts to grab back players by pursuing the populist WoW playing crowd with standardised game additions, PvP, outposts etc. Of these measures only Silan has really met with acclaim and has had the positive and desired effect, it is too early to tell what impact R2 has had or is having and both things still have reservations about them. It may be that success with Silan and R2 will allow Nevrax to go back more to the original vision once again but then that may not be wise if the playerbase has shifted that much towards mainstream players.

Opinion
While the shift to populism may have been essential for the financial survival of Ryzom I cannot help but feel that it has all been short-mid term reactive thinking rather than being good decisions for the long term survival of the game. It seems to me, evidenced by the number of ex SWG players that turn up here, that Ryzom's main appeal is still towards the niche of the RPer/Community oriented players who appreciate Ryzom's quirkiness of lore and more open ended nature. IMO the game would be better served working on story elements and episodes, invasions and adding RP/Community content to appeal to and enable that demographic - which tends to be much more long-term loyal to a game than the main, WoW playing demographic. I believe the playerbase would get far more out of meaningful big events, RP props, housing, different mounts, clothing/armour and yes, even dancing/entertainment than it will from raids and other conventional content.

IMO Ryzom can't compete with 'the big boys' if it tries to take the populist route, there simply isn't the manpower or financing. It can compete by being more creative, innovative and quirky and supporting the player demographic that was more prevalent before Ep2.

Ryzom, despite some of its lacks, is hands down the best MMO for roleplaying in existence right now and also has far and away the best community, despite the slow shift. If I were in charge I'd play to Ryzom's strengths and I _hope_ that R2 represents a move back in that direction.

Oops, long post, but I love analysing this stuff :)
(And to think I'm considered a 'whiner' here and a 'fanboi' on MMORPG.com)
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raynes
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Re: One year - Changes and lack of changes WTF

Post by raynes »

rothimar wrote:Well, let me ask you this...

Do you believe the issues with development are due to an uncaring or lazy development staff? Or do you believe the issue is financial?

And more to the point... what can be done to resolve the situation?

I have read many of the older posts on the forums here, I have discussed the situation with a few veteran players, and from what I can determine, it is most likely a case of development budget constraints due to limited revenue intake, and inflated marketing budgets of competing game publishers.

Any ideas?

Ryzom, regardless of the development history, has extreme potential. The community, for the most part, is amazing. If this game means so much to some of you... how do you think the issues which bother some of you can be rectified?
Part of my original post goes into what I think the problem is. Granted I was frustrated so it probably wasn't very clear.

I don't think the developers are lazy. I also don't think they are uncaring for the game. I actually think they work hard and they care deeply about their product. The issue is that I don't think the devs care about the general mmo players wants and needs, nor do I think they care about the general ryzom players wishes. I'm not saying they don't care if the Ryzom players are happy, I am saying they have what they want to develop in mind. Those things are highly experimental and never been tried before in mmo's. They do their best to try to make Ryzom players happy with what they have in mind. The problem is that what they have in mind (like the turn based outposts) simply will not make players happy no matter what you do with them.

So how do you fix this? As much as many current Ryzom players will cringe when I say this, I am going to. Make parts of Ryzom more like other MMO's. I don't mean make classes and dump the basics that make Ryzom really great. I mean putting in a good mission/quest system. I mean creating some raid areas. I mean putting in bosses that actually drop more than mats (like the few tribe bosses you have out there). Make Ryzom more like the starter islands.

Come up with some new raid events. Have Jena send Karavan troops to wipe out the Kami. Have the Kitin kill the Karavan under order for the Kami. Do stuff that will make a huge splash.

I do not beleive budget has anything to do with the problems Ryzom has. In my opinion it's the dev choices of the things they choose to develop and the things they leave unfinished.
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Re: One year - Changes and lack of changes WTF

Post by grimjim »

raynes wrote:So how do you fix this? As much as many current Ryzom players will cringe when I say this, I am going to. Make parts of Ryzom more like other MMO's. I don't mean make classes and dump the basics that make Ryzom really great. I mean putting in a good mission/quest system. I mean creating some raid areas. I mean putting in bosses that actually drop more than mats (like the few tribe bosses you have out there). Make Ryzom more like the starter islands.

Come up with some new raid events. Have Jena send Karavan troops to wipe out the Kami. Have the Kitin kill the Karavan under order for the Kami. Do stuff that will make a huge splash.

I do not beleive budget has anything to do with the problems Ryzom has. In my opinion it's the dev choices of the things they choose to develop and the things they leave unfinished.
As you can see above, I came to precisely the opposite conclusion. I think chasing the general demographic has profoundly harmed Ryzom and resulted in a loss of vision.

Quests - completely inappropriate for Ryzom in standard format and ideas. R2 will allow players to make and present 'quests' which fills this gap up quite a bit and will also allow for more specialised events, IMO. This is all to the good. The closest thing would be more ency missions, which we all hope are forthcoming I'm sure.

Raids - Completely inappropriate again, but you're getting your wish with the Kitin lair. I'm holding my breath to see how it's executed but 'phat lewt' will annihilate much of what makes the game work.

Bosses - See above.

I think Silan needs to be more explicit about what the mainland is and isn't though. Honestly, Ryzom cannot compete for the same middle ground that WoW, EQ2 etc battle over, there aren't the resources to do so. Ryzom's hope is in finding a solid niche (That held by pre NGE Starwars Galaxies pretty much) and doing it really well.

Raid events that forward the storyline more would, of course, be welcome. That's different to static, repeatable quests and raids.
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totnkopf
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Re: One year - Changes and lack of changes WTF

Post by totnkopf »

raynes wrote:I do not beleive budget has anything to do with the problems Ryzom has. In my opinion it's the dev choices of the things they choose to develop and the things they leave unfinished.
I disagree here. I believe budget has everything to do with it. Nevrax is still on very thin ice finacially. They've bought themselves an extension on life by using the Ring to interest the french court system and the stockholders. However, if Ring doesn't bring in the masses (it won't. its related to that niche that Judy was talking about... getting to that in a min), bye bye Ryzom.

The company is essentially struggling to stay alive. They've cut the dev team, cut off some of the people who helped guide the game, merged servers, etc. They've done everything they can to save money in the short term. Problem is that they have a niche game. They are serving a small community, one that is getting smaller all the time. That means less money and an ever increasing chance that they won't meet that 8 or 9 year plan they had. As much as people like Judy don't want to see it happen, Ryzom has to t listart appealing to the main MMO player. They need the people. As so things like instances or phat lewt are added. Ruin the game? not really... just a different take on it. But the choice is really a watered down Ryzom.... or .... no ryzom.

R2 will not bring in massive waves of people. Its a snazzy feature, but as many have pointed out, limited in what it can do. And this snazzy feature doesn't appeal to the PvPer or those who like to go off an raid or even those who like to group hunt, etc. And thats the majority of the market, the people that Nevrax needs to bring in to stay afloat.

We all love the idea of Ryzom. If we didn't, we wouldn't have played the game more than a day or so. But we have also seen many many many people leave the game for one reason or another. The community as it is today is much smaller than it was a year ago and a tiny fraction from what it was 2 years ago. Nevrax faces a very serious problem of attempting to maintain a large enough player base to make keeping the servers up profitable.

RoS is a good example of Nevrax attempting to get a chunk of that WoW market types. Silan isn't much like the mainland. There are quests that guide the char through various trees (such as quests that guide the player through the first stages of the magic tree). There is phat lewt in the form of MA that is better than can be made with the mats on the isle. Theres even a little arena for lowbies to go smack each other around. Is any of that truly Ryzom? Not really. But its what many of the other MMOs have as their main attraction. So Ryzom has to do it too. so, its not like the mainland... but do a /who on RoS. Notice anything? Its packed with people. Probably more people there than in whole continents on the mainland. And thats telling Nevrax something. All those people are playing their game because of the changes they made. Its free, sure, but if people didn't enjoy it, they wouldn't keep logging on to play it, even if it was free. Nevrax now sees those hundreds of people logging on to RoS and sees a huge opportunity. One that may lead to a large influx of people hitting the mainland. One that can bring their butts out of bankrupcy. Its a necessary evil, if you will. In order for Ryzom to continue on and display its unique story, RAID engine, etc, its has to take on many of the cookie cutter aspects of other MMOs.

grimjim wrote:Ryzom's hope is in finding a solid niche
The problem here is that even when Ryzom was buzzing with people, it wasn't profitable enough to keep them afloat. The current state of the game has less people and would require more cuts to make it even close to profitable. That would probably mean another server merge. No point in only have a hundred or so people on one server... just throw them in with the French or Germans. Better yet, one server! Big cut in costs now! I remember a Ryzom that had stables that were hard to get to the Stable Boy there were so many people crafting at them. And then Nevrax says "we're broke". How can we then expect them to use the current, small player base to continue its operations when it couldn't do it before when there was 5-10 times as many people as there are now? They can't. And thats where the raids, phat lewt, etc. come from
Last edited by totnkopf on Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Morgaine
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grimjim
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Re: One year - Changes and lack of changes WTF

Post by grimjim »

totnkopf wrote:Problem is that they have a niche game. They are serving a small community, one that is getting smaller all the time. That means less money and an ever increasing chance that they won't meet that 8 or 9 year plan they had. As much as people like Judy don't want to see it happen, Ryzom has to start appealing to the main MMO player. They need the people. As so things like instances or phat lewt are added. Ruin the game? not really... just a different take on it. But the choice is really a watered down Ryzom.... or .... no ryzom.
Again, I have to disagree, but at least you're backing up your points with ideas :) The community has been growing since Silan, R2 has set the pundits alight but only seems to have muted response on forums. As it gets going it should allow the devs etc to add 'content' more quickly and the playerbase to make up some of the 'lack' itself. A good, relatively cheap and labour light way of appealing to the original Ryzom community and providing content for everyone else from those same people who kept the game alive.

Ryzom is never, ever going to be able to be a mass appeal game it is too weird, too niche, too different. WoW has redefined what a lot of companies consider to be 'success' but you don't need to be a WoW to do well. Since Ryzom can't compete with those sorts of mass market games it is far better served going for people who aren't served by the WoWs and EQ2s of this world. Trying to go after WoW etc won't grab any of their playerbase - they're already well served - and will drive off Ryzom's natural demographic. We've already seen that happen to devastating effect with Ep2 and we've also seen it start to swing back with R2, a fair few old faces turning up for a nose around.

Going for the mainstream would be the end, it would be like the Mr Muscle advert guy going up against Mohammed Ali in his prime. Ryzom should stick to innovation and serving its niche well, aggressively going after the people SWG lost and that sort of ground where they can compete and can do better.

totnkopf wrote:R2 will not bring in massive waves of people. Its a snazzy feature, but as many have pointed out, limited in what it can do. And this snazzy feature doesn't appeal to the PvPer or those who like to go off an raid or even those who like to group hunt, etc. And thats the majority of the market, the people that Nevrax needs to bring in to stay afloat.
That remains to be seen. It could 'turn on' the modding community and bring their expertise and energy to the game, adding immeasurably to it. It is currently limited, but if Nevrax have any sense at all they'll expand it and loosen the rules pretty swiftly, at least so far as player hosted content goes. The PvPers have their roots and outposts (and spires) and have been served to the massive deteriment of the original game community, raiders are getting their kitin nests and R2 can also build Raid type content, so long as people are willing to build it. Hunting has the main world to play in. So all that's already covered really the problem is that it has been at the expense of the initial group of people who colonised Atys.

Every conventional move has been either a disaster or a somewhat limited success. Silan does the job of bringing people in but we don't know if it is making them stick. As we've seen it is creating a false impression. Short term thinking, long term cost, again.
totnkopf wrote:We all love the idea of Ryzom. If we didn't, we wouldn't have played the game more than a day or so. But we have also seen many many many people leave the game for one reason or another. The community as it is today is much smaller than it was a year ago and a tiny fraction from what it was 2 years ago. Nevrax faces a very serious problem of attempting to maintain a large enough player base to make keeping the servers up profitable.
Actualyl, I get the impression things have recovered quite significantly since Silan. It remains to be seen if the influx will stay and how many are just freebie hunters, but we'll see over the coming months. A lot depends on how Nevrax follows up. We're smaller than pre episode 1, but bigger than post Ep2. If Nevrax chases the conventional market it'll just cost them their old playerbase, pretty much entirely, and the new people won't be satisfied with their vision or rate of expansion.
totnkopf wrote:RoS is a good example of Nevrax attempting to get a chunk of that WoW market types. Silan isn't much like the mainland. There are quests that guide the char through various trees (such as quests that guide the player through the first stages of the magic tree). There is phat lewt in the form of MA that is better than can be made with the mats on the isle. Theres even a little arena for lowbies to go smack each other around. Is any of that truly Ryzom? Not really. But its what many of the other MMOs have as their main attraction. So Ryzom has to do it too. Its a necessary evil, if you will. In order for Ryzom to continue on and display its unique story, RAID engine, etc, its has to take on many of the cookie cutter aspects of other MMOs.
Then there would be nothing to differentiate it. I can't stress enough how going after the main middle ground market would completely annihilate Ryzom. Niches are important and viable.

Would you rather every book was a Jackie Collins? Every meal was a McDonalds? There is room, financially and creatively, for well supported niche markets to be successful, you just have to adjust your expectations and recognise that fact.
totnkopf wrote:The problem here is that even when Ryzom was buzzing with people, it wasn't profitable enough to keep them afloat. The current state of the game has less people and would require more cuts to make it even close to profitable. That would probably mean another server merge. No point in only have a hundred or so people on one server... just throw them in with the French or Germans. Better yet, one server! Big cut in costs now! I remember a Ryzom that had stables that were hard to get to the Stable Boy there were so many people crafting at them. And then Nevrax says "we're broke". How can we then expect them to use the current, small player base to continue its operations when it couldn't do it before when there was 5-10 times as many people as there are now? They can't. And thats where the raids, phat lewt, etc. come from
We'll never know because Patch 1 came along pretty damn fast and did a 'Black Death' on the servers. If one could only send a time machine back and warn Nevrax how bad an idea that was. Pretty much every problem since and the reactive nature of changes to the game can all be traced back to that one, singular event. As I said before, pretty much every move towards standard MMO mundanity has cost Ryzom more than it has gained. Even Silan, which is bringing people in, is still effectively a lie. Long term that will cost the game in terms of goodwill and word of mouth, which is the only advertising we have. SWG's cock up has done more for Ryzom than almost anything else that Nevrax have done with the game and to me that's a strong signal that the original vision should be persued again - not exactly the same but in the same ethos.

It is a good rule of business to serve your existing customers first. They're loyal, they'll stick aruond and if happy they'll give you positive publicity. Betray your customer base and you create massive amounts of bad publicity (Reference SWG again). If Ryzom serves its niche well people will come and they will stick and they will tell their friends. If the original promise can even approximately be fulfilled a lot of the pre Ep1 people will come back too. If word of mouth is the only publicity you have you'd better make sure it's good!
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michielb
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Re: One year - Changes and lack of changes WTF

Post by michielb »

Now would be a good time for an official response about what happened to the original vision for the game and how much of it is still "in the works"...

(not holding my breath though)
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