I came back, I tried, I saw and I cancelled

[borguk]

I havent even commented on the PvP element, my highest rank is in foraging at 150, my next in crafting at 120 and my 2h melee is 92. Anyone could gank me, what chance would I stand against anyone who is 150+ in melee or magic.

I have selected Neutral, really comments from Neutrals are the ones to note as those who have selected a faction won't suffer the same problems.

But you cannot get away from one basic thing, we play games for fun as soon as it stops being fun you wont play ( and therefore Pay).

Why were TP points installed in the first place, could that be to save running repeatedly through mob infested areas ? To allow for fast travel to areas of interest ? To allow ppl something to aim at and progress ?

While I am sure the PvP element is fun for ppl its not something they generally want to do all the time.

I am a reasonably heavy PvPer in WoW, however the novelty of ganking lower levels soon wears off and as much as I like PvP, what you find is that in areas where allaince and horde PvE its not often that fights break out because there are dedicated Battegrounds for it.

You must have balance, on WoW you have a choice of joining a PvP or PvE server, the PvE servers are just as full as the PvP ones, does that not speak volumes.
Here there is no choice, you cannot choose to play on a PvE server.

What Im saying is basically that yes, bring on the PvP for those who want it but dont force factions or PvP on those who dont.
Dont sacrifice the PvE element of the game, allow ppl the choice.

[asyne]

How many times have you spent 30 minutes + sneaking through PR to a boss, only to find out that someone has simply teleported in and killed it during that time? [...] Neutral TPs are a major problem, denying us access to content simply by being too slow to get there in time.

I don't think it can really be called a problem.

<slightly IC> Kami and Kara are megacorp big, with techs and knowledge that would boggle any homin's mind. Naturally, a single homin would be signifigantly more powerful with the backing of one of the two, albeit at the potential expense of a good deal of free will and friends. I see neutrality as choosing independance over convenience, as it would certainly be more convenient to just pick a side and get access to the teleports. Want speed/ease/power? Pick a faction. Want acceptance/freedom/pluralism? Go indie. So the question is, what would you give to gain the advantage of the teleport system? Is that next boss pop more important than keeping both a Kami friend and Kara friend in good graces? </slightly IC>

In short, it's a give and take: freedom for power.

Why were TP points installed in the first place, could that be to save running repeatedly through mob infested areas ? To allow for fast travel to areas of interest ? To allow ppl something to aim at and progress ?

Perhaps to give homins a taste of the extreme usefulness of them so they knew what was at stake when they would be only provided to the factioned. You say "it's not fair - they were useful", but because they were useful they act as a big motivation to choose a faction so there can be some participants in FvF.

[andypur1]

Why were TP points installed in the first place, could that be to save running repeatedly through mob infested areas ? To allow for fast travel to areas of interest ? To allow ppl something to aim at and progress ?

Here there is no choice, you cannot choose to play on a PvE server.

What Im saying is basically that yes, bring on the PvP for those who want it but dont force factions or PvP on those who dont.
Dont sacrifice the PvE element of the game, allow ppl the choice.

The reply that I have to this is that choosing a faction doesn't mean that you automatically have to PvP and you still gain access to TPs in every area. This is more than used to be available before the factions' war broke out. The only compulsary PvP areas (Trench of Trial, Nexus, Matis Arena) have been that way for a long time (since before I starting playing) for the rest, you have to make a conscious choice to tag up for PvP.

I admit that it would be nice for neutral to have TPs in every area, but as all the TPs are controlled by one of the two factions, I can at least see why they are not willing to give 'free' (well 12.2k dappers) access to the desirable areas.

There are still PvE events, indeed there was one last night with the evil kitin menace stamped on again (although Desemme got away from me, the coward) and the upcoming Kitin Lair looks pretty PvP free to me

[cloudy97]

Why do some ppl who see posts that fit in with their point of view just say they are whines.

Borguk, it wasn't against you. Sorry if I made it sound like that. It's has just been a constant complaining ever since December and I tire hearing the same arguments over and over.

My point is that the game gives me a fuzzy warm feeling, and that haven't changed since I started last August. The people that know me also know I'm not a PVP head, but want it for roleplay reasons. While my friends list is getting darker at the top, it is also lighting up at the bottom, new really good players are coming here in a steady flow (thank you so much SWG-NGE).

I can agree with you that Neutals need more teleports, I was hoping the Trytonists that went deep down the Prime Roots would actually discover a neutral-only area. Just wishful thinking...

[borguk]

Borguk, it wasn't against you. Sorry if I made it sound like that. It's has just been a constant complaining ever since December and I tire hearing the same arguments over and over.

My point is that the game gives me a fuzzy warm feeling, and that haven't changed since I started last August. The people that know me also know I'm not a PVP head, but want it for roleplay reasons. While my friends list is getting darker at the top, it is also lighting up at the bottom, new really good players are coming here in a steady flow (thank you so much SWG-NGE).

I can agree with you that Neutals need more teleports, I was hoping the Trytonists that went deep down the Prime Roots would actually discover a neutral-only area. Just wishful thinking...

Me and 2 other Neutrals were discussing that the Nexus should be made a PvE area only for example. The planet is big enough for areas to be made that way. I remember when PvP was announced, the worried posts were not from Warriors or Magicians but from crafters and foragers. I distinctly remember one guild ganking any forager that they found in the PRs, we are usually high in levels other than fighting and so easy targets.

As to TPs you have the answer, they should be free to those ppl who have joined those factions but 12.5k in dappers to neutrals.

[aardnebb]

EDIT: Deleted...mostly.

Meh, why am I posting this, or anything else on the subject? Just as some people will "gank" as long as there is an ability to PvP, some people will whine as long as there is a forum. I lump both types into the same mental pile.

*shrugs* thats up to you, I see the forums as a way to express my enjoyment of certain aspects of the game, and suggest how other aspects can be improved (in my not-so-humble oppinion of course ).

If you consider this "whining" then you are welcome to that oppinion, but posting a "stop whining" post is probaby more inflamatory than the original post and is unlikely to help. A politely phrased "I disagree, and this is why:" will get a far more reasonable response.

[akede]

*puts on flame retardant from ACME"

Couple of questions from a new player:
1. In what order were the TPs, PvP zones, PvP flags and OPs implemented?
2. Was there ever any dev rationale explained as to why the TPs were limited to factions in certain regions?

What I can see without the above context is that the devs wish to see the two factions(Kami and Karavan) be a central point of the saga. Having a third segment of the population(Neutral is really the absence of a cult faction) pop-up was short-sighted of the devs. They really should have planned for that and it appears, IMHO, that they didn't. It's pretty clear from other games that when 2 sides are identified the players may develop a third.

The factional TPs may have been a way to implement incentives to pick a side, but they are trivialized by the community and as a result a third segment has a healthy population.

If the Devs truly wanted two sides, as in a football/soccer match, then they should have made all of the TPs cult specific(strict rules to enforce game play). That would have driven everyone to a side, but they didn't.

So now there is confusion as to what their motive was. I believe they need to correct the situation by doing one of the following things:
1. Should they only want two factions(cults) they should implement a ruleset that forces everyone to a side. Perhaps trainers are factional, the TPs are factional, the respawn points are factional. I know this is extreme, but just trying to make a point.
2. If the devs think the current state of the religious environment is interesting, then remove the ineffective barriers that hamper the fun for the the non-religious faction. That could mean open access to all TPs in every location they exist. Again, an extreme example.

I really can't figure out what the devs intended, but it appears to be a haphazard collection of rules that is confusing the new players and creating a lot of tension with the older players.

[oldmess]

If the Devs truly wanted two sides, as in a football/soccer match, then they should have made all of the TPs cult specific(strict rules to enforce game play). That would have driven everyone to a side, but they didn't.

To my memory, it looked like they were heading that direction, but when that idea or one similar to it was given over for community feedback, the uproar was deafening. So, they changed direction.

I really can't figure out what the devs intended, but it appears to be a haphazard collection of rules that is confusing the new players and creating a lot of tension with the older players.

That's exactly the problem: they had a plan, lots of people objected, they haphazardly attempted to assuage their concerns and the overall story got sacrificed. If they had stuck to their plan, they probably would have lost a lot of existing players. In all honesty, they were stuck in a no-win situation that led to a half-arsed result. The only solutions that wouldn't have seemed so weak were:

1. continue forth and push everyone to a faction. Downside - some people leave.
2. completely retrench and rewrite so that it's a 3 sided environment wherein all 3 sides are equally balanced and one is not just an afterthought. Downside - everyone wanted new content and they wanted it NOW. They weren't going to wait. Therefore, even more loss of players.

[huntn]

That argument is kind of self defeating because the people you are claiming are whiners are those against the gankers.

Bottom line here people is this is a forum. People have a RIGHT to express their opinion without being flamed and being called whiners. You don't like their opinion you have 3 choices:

a) don't read it.
b) express a reasoned counter argument.
c) get back in game/get back to work and don't let it bother you.

I agree with this sentiment. I have no idea if the developer reads the forums, but they should want to know why subscribers are leaving. Labeling people as whiners because they are not happy with the game is not fair. For SoR to survive, the developer must figure out what most people want out of their game.

[carrie]

In response to your questions/comments Akede:

Though it was always intended that the saga focus around a battle between the Kami and Karavan (with the added fight against the Kitin), upon the game's release many of the aspects setting up this scenario were not implemented. Thus, many long-time players were introduced to a game that really didn't revolve around Kami/Karavan issues and we were lulled into a peaceful existence among all homin. Every player had access to every available tp - there was no way to register a factional alignment, so tp's were not factional in any respect. PvP was introduced (in PR only, I think) initially. I can't remember in which order the tags and OPs were introduced.

Due to the fact that PvP/cult alignment was not important at Ryzom's release, I feel Nevrax was short-sighted in not considering the possibility of a third side. However, I think the introduction of a third side is complicated by the fact that many call themselves neutral for very different reasons. Some are anti-pvp, some are agnostic, some are hominists. I would think this makes it quite difficult for Nevrax to determine how to introduce this and instead they've left it up to the players to develop this aspect.

I would not be in favour of a ruleset forcing sides. Though it seems tenuous at times, I think overall one of the most interesting aspects of Ryzom is our freedom to make choices with our game. We have the ability to chose any available skill and to change mid-stream if we decide we want to pursue something new (I would hate to be limited to doing melee all the time simply because I chose that at the start). We have the freedom to chose our political alignments (ie, I am a Matisian Kamist who was previously agnostic/neutral). I would hate being told I have to be Karavan simply because I've made a Matisian character. It may get complicated at times, but I think that's one of the reasons you still see beta-players around.