The big-ish Issue..

[blaah]

The other thing is... crafters and afk players that get ganked or something... sorry were they pvp enabled then ? Cause if yes... then why do they complain about beeing ganked ... or attacked when crafter ? PvP in MMOs is always about ganking.. outnumbering... nothing wrong with that. Winning outnumbered can be a blast.

yep, lot of carebear/wannabe PvP'ers (sry but it's the truth) that gets annoyed when getting attacked afk/crafting while wearing PvP tag.

read again before replying regarding EP2, i said "wearing PvP tag", which is your choice to be active in PvP.

Naib, you are very welcomed here, and very needed to your choosed side when spires go live.

[dazman76]

Naib, the problem here is actually not a PvP problem - it's a "PvP and people" problem Essentially, most players with a brain can behave as expected, and use their PvP abilities to aid their faction. The problem players are those who insist on using those abilities to annoy others, and remove their fun from the game. This regularly spills onto the forums, resulting in childish arguments that show the true nature of certain players.

The argument exists because Ryzom was launched without PvP - and a lot of people remember those times warmly. I'm not averse to PvP myself if it's enjoyable, but it's introduction created a split within the community. Many players loved Ryzom for what it was *before* PvP was introduced, and quite simply people have left *because* PvP was introduced. This is why you see such a divide in opinions. PvP is seen as a 'selling point' - both negative and positive. Negative because it unavoidably attracts 'the idiots' (and you don't need many of those in a small community), and positive because it can bring an extra dimension to a game. Many games have done PvP badly - yet another reason for this argument to exist.

From my point of view, PvP is 'OK' - to be honest if I'm being tested against someone else, I prefer to do it via FPS or similar games, because RPG controls and mechanics are too far removed from reaction, timing and skill testing, and too heavily based on hidden stats and resists. Not completely removed, but too much for me to genuinely feel I won because of something other than my equipment.

@Blaah - pretty disappointed to see the term 'carebear' on these forums I have only ever seen that term used by people who PvP negatively, and it only serves to inflame an already sensitive subject. By using the term you're insulting and alienating the players you refer to, even if that wasn't your intent

[norvic]

The tag system we have is great. Personally I like to mind my own business 95% of the time digging crafting etc and go about Tag off no problem. I still regard myself as a follower of Jena (after my Governor) but dont feel the need to display my allegiance all the time because the tag is not just displaying your faction but also is an acceptance of PvP.

The issue of the right and wrongs of killing crafters and afk's is a whole other can of worms, "Honour" has been mentioned and i personally wouldnt do it either but if you choose to fly your tag you must accept that there are some people out there who will kill you no matter what the circumstances and the inabilty of some to accept this is what fuels the Debate.

If for RP reasons you feel you cannot turn your tag off because of your beleifs this is unfortunate as there is no separation between showing your allegiance and enabling PvP, but as a more forthright follower of your faction you should therefore accept you are a target for the other side.

[philu]

As you can see Naib, for the most part, this community will argue quite intelligently both for and against PvP.

No-one hates you for liking PvP, if they do they aint worth bothering about IMHO. You just have to accept some of us will discuss it with you and put forward their point of view. It IS a forum after all.

@blaah - I agree with Dazman, that kind of talk's out of line. Hardly mature or constructive, in fact it's tantamount to flaming/trolling. What are you trying to do, prove the point about trash talk?

[kostika]

Yes you can put people on your ignore list, no problem with that. You can also make chat logs - IIRC the command is /chatlog. I'm sure one of the chat log experts will confirm it.

Actually the command is /chatLog Yes, syntax matters. The log will be put in your saves folder in the ryzom install directory.

A general comment on the PvP thing. It's not the PvP itself that many have a problem with, but the implementation. Originally PvP was secluded to the Umbra PR area, then made worldwide after EP2. It was a minor problem prior to EP2 but many were able to live with it, myself included. When worldwide PvP came in is when the problems being talked about here began to surface.

[dazman76]

I think if we were actually at war, people may feel differently. As Kos mentioned though, these tags have appeared way before this "great war" we keep hearing about. That alone causes problems - why a shift with ingame mechanics, with no ingame plotline or evidence to support it? If I'm at war, shouldn't my borders be closed? Shouldn't the guards be dropping the opposing faction on sight, regardless of some tag being on/off? And why the hell is Yrkanis doing the rounds in both friendly and unfriendly territory? Surely if we are at war, we should have the chance to nuke the king when he visits Zora?

Faction-based PvP is very difficult to balance, and even more difficult to justify - especially if you take a mild RP angle. Meh, I have to use the W word again... Ah well, it's just an example In Warcraft, the two factions have very clear attitudes towards each other. After a war, then peace, then another war, etc. - they are now at war again. WoW has used this scenario since it's beginning (taken from Frozen Throne I think - not really a fan), so there is reason (RP or otherwise) to ask the question "Why am I opposing the humans?". It's right there, in the storyline, and it's unavoidable. On Atys, we have the past events up to the great swarming, and then the game started with all Civ's being led to safety. Still not big friends, but they get along at least.

During the early time of Ryzom release, everyone played together (regardless of faction or Civ) and had a lot of fun. There were cross-civ guilds, cross-faction guilds, all sorts. Then we hit fame, things became a little more difficult - cross-faction guilds were a problem, for example. Even so, fame was just numbers - people still played together, with whoever they liked. And they still had fun.

Now here we are - no war going on at present, but everyone has taken sides. People generally only grouping with their own faction, auctions that are 'kami/karavan' only. People who never even bother with PvP being nuked whilst digging. This is not the way for a small community to go, and thinking it may pull the community apart entirely is not so far-fetched. PvP IS the reason a lot of people left, be it the implementation of the PvP, the attitudes being formed because of it, or the steady stream of playground arguments on the forum concerning kill-on-sight lists and other such rubbish.

[blaah]

about choice of words:
there really isn't any other word for those who cry about getting killed wearing PvP tag while afk/crafting/treking/hunting/dontwannapvpatm.
yes, the ganking afk/etc players is silly, but it's also silly to cry when being killed that way.

yes, i'm aware that some are using FvF flag to show allegiance and are not interested in PvP... but that is wrong, because it wasn't meant to be used that way and other dont have any means to know your intentions.
annoy Nevrax untill they give you other non-pvp means to show you'r allegiance.

[uhuhu]

about choice of words:
there really isn't any other word for those who cry about getting killed wearing PvP tag while afk/crafting/treking/hunting/dontwannapvpatm.
yes, the ganking afk/etc players is silly, but it's also silly to cry when being killed that way.

yes, i'm aware that some are using FvF flag to show allegiance and are not interested in PvP... but that is wrong, because it wasn't meant to be used that way and other dont have any means to know your intentions.
annoy Nevrax untill they give you other non-pvp means to show you'r allegiance.

well said

[philu]

Actually the command is /chatLog Yes, syntax matters. The log will be put in your saves folder in the ryzom install directory.

When I mentioned chat log experts, I was actually thinking of you Kost. Thanks for the correction.

about choice of words:
there really isn't any other word for those who cry about getting killed wearing PvP tag while afk/crafting/treking/hunting/dontwannapvpatm.
yes, the ganking afk/etc players is silly, but it's also silly to cry when being killed that way.

yes, i'm aware that some are using FvF flag to show allegiance and are not interested in PvP... but that is wrong, because it wasn't meant to be used that way and other dont have any means to know your intentions.
annoy Nevrax untill they give you other non-pvp means to show you'r allegiance.

While I don't agree with the WAY you expressed it initially, I tend to agree with principle of your argument. If you turn your PvP flag on, expect to get ganked. Doesn't make it right but you did ask for it. If you don't want to be ganked, don't turn the flag on. Yes there should be a way to show your allegiance without engaging in PvP. In the end it's Nevrax's fault for not implementing something for the non-PvP faction.

I think if we were actually at war, people may feel differently. As Kos mentioned though, these tags have appeared way before this "great war" we keep hearing about. That alone causes problems - why a shift with ingame mechanics, with no ingame plotline or evidence to support it? If I'm at war, shouldn't my borders be closed? Shouldn't the guards be dropping the opposing faction on sight, regardless of some tag being on/off? And why the hell is Yrkanis doing the rounds in both friendly and unfriendly territory? Surely if we are at war, we should have the chance to nuke the king when he visits Zora?

I did propose something similar recently regarding the guards. I agree that they should attack the 'enemy' be it faction or civ. There's a war brewing, lets see some in game effect for that.

[dazman76]

about choice of words:
there really isn't any other word for those who cry about getting killed wearing PvP tag while afk/crafting/treking/hunting/dontwannapvpatm.
yes, the ganking afk/etc players is silly, but it's also silly to cry when being killed that way.

OK, I also agree with what you're saying there, but choice of words is important - please, I know you may feel strongly about this, but don't use the word 'cry' It smacks of two young kids arguing, and I hate that - moan, whine, complain, protest - they are all good choices, just not 'cry', please It's almost as bad as saying something is 'gay' when you don't like it - but not quite as bad