A 2nd letter to FairHaven from AA

[oldmess]

The very page you linked to says:

"If you believe in a world without tyranny or intolerence, with neither master nor slaves, come help us build it !"

That sounds like Neutral to me.

It does not sound neutral to me at all. It sounds like a call to arms to resist tyranny and intolerence. Especially given the Tryker lore's clear suspicion of the Kami's motives and our historical belief that they want to control our minds.

Thank you for returning to the thread's actual topic.

[oldmess]

The problem is, you can't take the quote about us worshiping Jena in isolation, you have to read the rest of the lore as well;

I did not intend to deceive or put forth a quote out of context. That's why I linked to the whole thing.

Taken as a whole, I agree that there is a level of cynicism, but our basic belief in Jena as our goddess and our suspicion of the Kami is still there.

The only way I can think of is if the desire to "stamp them out" is what we tell the Karavan to keep them sweet, and not what most Trykers really want.
It is probably true that most of us don't worship them, and don't regard them as important as Jena and Tryton, but in practice most Trykers probably operate on a "live and let live" basis; if they don't bother us, we don't bother them.

So if you want to unite the Trykers around a single position, trying to do it over a "pro-Jena/anti-Kami" one is a mistake.

Yet, we are a practical people and a Tryker is a Tryker regardless of his dalliances with the Corsairs. Yes, dalliances seems like the right word when I read the lore. Gov. Wiler did not come back from them preaching the Kami ways. In recent events he has stood strong with the Karavan and with the Matis. And in standing strong with them, he is able to influence them and try to move the world toward peace.

Your points are all well made and I thank you for joining the conversation. What concerns me most is a very practical concern: If we are not united both with ourselves, our Karavan allies and our Matis brothers and sisters (kamist propaganda aside, I do not believe they desire to dominate us), then a united Kamist front may threaten the lakelands. Despite all our desires for peace, war may come.

Saying we'll unite in a purely defensive position around the lakelands sounds like isolationism and will leave us defenseless if war comes. Also, if we wish to influence the Matis to a more defensive, live and let live, position, we need to be engaged with them and not treating them like they're the enemy too.

[oldmess]

Getting ready of handing next choice morsel out of lakelands to your Matisian overlords, Pero - And trying to find sympathy and justification for the action? One hate campaign already managed to drive a Tryker guild homeless and your speech seems to incline that another one is starting...

A kamist trys to drive a wedge between the Matis and the Tryker again. How quaint.

I'm sure your motives are pure and not based on any desire to simply divide us so that your side will be stronger in a relative sense. But I wonder this: Why is it OK for you to be a declared believer in your faith, but for Pero or I to advocate our faith to our brothers is seen as a hate campaign? Odd.

[danolt]

Some of those who label themselves neutral are only trying to justify their own desires with a false sense of moral superiority. Many, probably most, of those who are identified as neutral have never been exposed to the teachings of either side or more to the point, do not care. The indifferent majority are overshadowed by the mewlings of those who believe in nothing and take the easy road of selfishness and profit. They tear down institutions and beliefs in order to make their own shadowy visions of reality appear stronger. They do not wish to discuss, they rant and accuse. They look for flaws in one single brick and scream that a whole city is defective.

How many times have we heard that we are puppets of the gods, or what have the gods done for homins? Of course, no example is ever given and the ability to respawn is always ignored.

How many Trykers were torn asunder by the Kitin against the barred walls of the Zoari? How many homins perished because the Fyros disobeyed Jena and unleashed an inferno that ravaged the world? These homins died, they are destroyed, gone. They did not respawn. The homin races faced extinction, because of pride and lust for power.

Jena saw that Her people were doomed, that Homins would not survive the Kitin who swarmed in revenge for their burned dead. Even in our sin, unconditionally, She brought us back from the brink, regardless of faith or deeds; She breathes life in still bodies. Her love for all of us is that great.

I suppose the argument of neutrality is that somehow, because of their birth, the ability to respawn was formed because of their individual glory. It is their right. A right their ancestors did not have, just them, because they are somehow better then all the homins who ever came before. They are obviously gods themselves, and as such, the highest moral authority ever born.

I have some questions for the self proclaimed righteous. Which commandment of Jena is immoral? How is honoring your creator, the giver of life, yipping like a gingo? As for the mercenaries' largest complaint the puppeteering of the faithful to battle, can you find a single justification for violence in the commandments of Jena? I can not.

http://ryzom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21201

I am well aware that I will face judgment with sin upon my hands. I am well aware that I am hypocrite and unable to follow the tenants I preach. I am also well aware that my only chance for salvation is the gift of grace, not a birthright. I am not a god.

I do not resent those who believe differently then me. Creation is imperfect so that we can have free will. I value different opinions and I listen for wisdom. I have made mistakes. I will make more. I know that no matter how hard I try I can never grasp the entire design of Jena. If I were to truly understand what She wanted, how could I ignore Her wishes? If Her desire was to be followed blindly, She would not have made us with freewill.

Is it the decree of Jena that I strive to convert all of the Lakeland's? I don't think so. She only asks that Her followers spread Her word. That is why I yip, blindly and ignorantly, never willing to discuss or respect an opposing view. I put on my zealot hat as She pulls me along like a puppet in order that others can hear Her message and decide what is best for them and I can hear other points of view and decide what is best for me.

She wants us to listen.


Pero

[akm72]

...
Saying we'll unite in a purely defensive position around the lakelands sounds like isolationism and will leave us defenseless if war comes. Also, if we wish to influence the Matis to a more defensive, live and let live, position, we need to be engaged with them and not treating them like they're the enemy too.

I agree, having formed a Tryker alliance it would be necessary to reach out to potential allies outside the lakes. I would suggest making mutual defence pacts with both the Fyros and the Matis alliances.

A kamist trys to drive a wedge between the Matis and the Tryker again. How quaint.

That wedge already exists, whether a Kamist is trying to exploit it or not. Forming an exclusive alliance with the race that is most likly to try to enslave us in future, while attacking potential allies, is not clever.

[philu]

It does not sound neutral to me at all. It sounds like a call to arms to resist tyranny and intolerence. Especially given the Tryker lore's clear suspicion of the Kami's motives and our historical belief that they want to control our minds.

Thank you for returning to the thread's actual topic.

Would that be the very tyranny that the Matis imposed on Trykers? Are you forgetting that? The only time the Trykers experienced slavery was at the hands of the Matis. Could it not be possible that it is this form of tyranny that the quote refers to? Can you at least admit that is a possibility?

If we are not united both with ourselves, our Karavan allies and our Matis brothers and sisters (kamist propaganda aside, I do not believe they desire to dominate us)

That's not what you thought in this thread:

http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15397

"Dominate the common races" certainly had you worried in your response. How easily you forget the words of the Matis King, when he clearly declared his intention to rule ALL of Atys.

Why is it OK for you to be a declared believer in your faith, but for Pero or I to advocate our faith to our brothers is seen as a hate campaign?

Perhaps because you seem to be advocating more than a defensive posture while the kamists or neutrals that have posted advocate defense over attack. I'd be interested to see some figures on who has been the most aggressive. I may be wrong (feel frre to prove it if you can) but most of the aggression seems to be coming from the Karavan. The majority of the attacks I can can remember have been by Karavan against neutral or Kami guild outposts. Am I mistaken?

[philu]

How many times have we heard that we are puppets of the gods, or what have the gods done for homins? Of course, no example is ever given and the ability to respawn is always ignored.

Build us temples, fight our war, man our outposts, dig us materials for our war. Don't those sound like examples of how both the Kami AND the Karavan try to use us?

Which commandment of Jena is immoral?

Let me ask you this:

Do you agree that the Goo is a blight on our planet? Do you agree that it corrupts and destroys?

Do you deny that the Karavan ordered that homins stop fighting the Goo and dig the planet's resources instead?

http://www.ryzom.com/?page=lore_races_z ... aces_zorai

2484
Region of Cities of Intuition explored, cleaned of goo and made relatively safe.
Hoi-Cho refuses adherence to Karavan teachings.
Kamis intervene whenever Karavan tries to punish Zorais for fighting goo instead of gathering raw materials for them.

I call THAT immoral.

Is it the decree of Jena that I strive to convert all of the Lakeland's? I don't think so. She only asks that Her followers spread Her word.

http://www.ryzom.com/?page=lore_races_t ... ces_tryker

2486
Karavan and Matis pressurize Tryker council to push Kami alters away from residential zones.

Sounds like they're trying to convert the lakelands to me.

[oldmess]

That's not what you thought in this thread:

http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15397

"Dominate the common races" certainly had you worried in your response. How easily you forget the words of the Matis King, when he clearly declared his intention to rule ALL of Atys.

And it had Gov. Wiler concerned at the time. After discussing it with King Yrkanis, he came out and supported the Matis. The Matis are prone to using overblown rhetoric on occasion.

At the time, I was concerned by that one portion of Yrkanis's statement. I raised my concerned amongst my own guild as well as other leading Matis guilds. Gov. Wiler raised similar concerns with Yrkanis directly.

Today, I am convinced that the Karavan aligned Matis no longer wish to dominate us.

Perhaps because you seem to be advocating more than a defensive posture while the kamists or neutrals that have posted advocate defense over attack.

I am advocating what I am advocating. If you wish to read more into my words that I've said, I can't stop you. I've tried to be pretty clear.

I am not advocating war, but it may come with or without my advocacy. If it does and we are divided or isolationist, we may lose that freedom we value so highly.

[sprite]

The only time the Trykers experienced slavery was at the hands of the Matis.

The Zorai were the first race to reintroduce slavery while under the rule of Fung-Tun.

"Dominate the common races" certainly had you worried in your response. How easily you forget the words of the Matis King, when he clearly declared his intention to rule ALL of Atys.

Perhaps you were not present at the time, but it was explained to us that one of the heralds of the King inserted this line into one of the speeches without the knowledge of King Yrkanis. Having suitably punished the herald, Yrkanis and Gov. Wiler now stand side by side.

[philu]

Today, I am convinced that the Karavan aligned Matis no longer wish to dominate us.

I hope you are right my friend. If not, I'll be there to help your defence with my healing, regardless of faction alignments.

The Zorai were the first race to reintroduce slavery while under the rule of Fung-Tun.

Hey I aint saying the Kamist are perfect.

However, wasn't Fung-tun a Karavan supporter and insane to boot?

Perhaps you were not present at the time, but it was explained to us that one of the heralds of the King inserted this line into one of the speeches without the knowledge of King Yrkanis. Having suitably punished the herald, Yrkanis and Gov. Wiler now stand side by side.

Thanks for clearing that up. No I wasn't aware of that.