False Declarations? o.0

Come in, pull up a chair, let's discuss all things Ryzom-related.
blaah
Posts: 1333
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:43 am

Re: False Declarations? o.0

Post by blaah »

ambika wrote:Aggro-dragging allowed only then because of no DP.
you say itself, they allowed it, it is allowed. does not matter if it's in "normal" atys or "old" atys
ambika wrote:PvE cliffing: Not allowed. Not sure where you get this. I've asked myself and they said "no". Doesn't stop people from doing it.
"cliffing" exploiting dumb AI, right ?
lot of places where AI runs to wrong way before it finds a right path, so you can kill mob w/o risk.
cleaver use of landscape, nothing more ;-)
(if you stupid enough to nuke from actual cliff, then you should be banned)
ambika wrote:Kill stealing: Not Allowed. People still do it but luckily it's not a huge problem here. Not sure where ya get the idea it's allowed.
Kill stealing is just in you mind. if you cant make more damage than other, then to bad. (just for the record, if mob is "taken" i will not attack it before it has less than 50% left).
if you do more damage than others, then you get the kill. simple.
kill stealing is just your imagination.
ambika wrote:Merchant Storage: Allowed and not an exploit.
merchant storage is exploiting game mechanics. no way to enforce it, so allowed.
ambika wrote:how can it be when it doesn't give you an advantage over others as far as leveling goes
merchant storage is part of a mat teleporting.
both are exploiting game mechanics.

there is allowed exploits and bannable exploits.
User avatar
ambika
Posts: 272
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:00 am

Re: False Declarations? o.0

Post by ambika »

blaah wrote:you say itself, they allowed it, it is allowed. does not matter if it's in "normal" atys or "old" atys

Wrong. It DOES matter because that was an exception to that zone/event. Show me proof that they allow aggro-dragging in the rest of Atys.

blaah wrote: "cliffing" exploiting dumb AI, right ?
lot of places where AI runs to wrong way before it finds a right path, so you can kill mob w/o risk.
cleaver use of landscape, nothing more ;-)
(if you stupid enough to nuke from actual cliff, then you should be banned)

Most cases it finds the right path pretty soon. Only exceptions is when ya have some kind of object between the mob and yourself so it gives ya a few seconds and it runs around.

Nothing clever in "using" the landscape to your advantage. Clever would be something that takes some thought.

blaah wrote: Kill stealing is just in you mind. if you cant make more damage than other, then to bad. (just for the record, if mob is "taken" i will not attack it before it has less than 50% left).
if you do more damage than others, then you get the kill. simple.
kill stealing is just your imagination.

Nice rhetoric but no catch. Kill-stealing is the act in which a person intentionally steals mobs that another group/person has already begun killing. There are times were accidents happen(2 teams on a spawn).

When it is intentionally done (either to harrass someone or because the group wants easy kills), it is an offense...one that is NOT allowed.

blaah wrote: merchant storage is exploiting game mechanics. no way to enforce it, so allowed.

merchant storage is part of a mat teleporting.
both are exploiting game mechanics.


Now this we can argue all day. Unlike the others, you're not using any leverage to level faster (as in cliffing) or harrassing others (as in kill-stealing). Therefore, to me I can see why it's not considered an exploit.

If they had ways to let us buy more storage (through add-ons on apts, owning multiple apartments, or just being able to buy more packers), then I just see someone being increidbly lazy or cheap.
User avatar
totnkopf
Posts: 843
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:30 am

Re: False Declarations? o.0

Post by totnkopf »

Sorry, ambi, but gotta disagree on how much of that is illegal. Show me where the CoC outlines all that. I can't really show you where the CoC doesn't since I'd not be pointing to anything...

As I said before, unless the CoC lays out exactly was is an exploit/illegal action, then the GMs cannot enforce it.

Lawrence on Kill Stealing: http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showpost.php ... stcount=58 . Essentially, there are things that are labeled by players as exploits. While they are not actually against the CoC, the community has labeled them as taboo. Things like kill stealing for example. Instead of the GMs enforcing it (as they can't since its not part of the CoC), its up to the community to do it.

I attempted to look for the thread on a Q&A about outposts, but was unable to find it. In it, the topic of aggro dragging and outposts was brought up. Essentially, if a mob ended up in the fight, it was part of the game, regardless of how it got there. Its a similar response to the mobs in the old lands. Aggro dragging was essentially declared a valid tactic and no one i know of was ever even warned by the GMs about it (even when a GM was standing right in front of people who were doing it). If I find the thread ever, I'll add it in.
Morgaine
Infinity
"Stay smart. Stay cool. It's time to prove to your friends that you're worth a damn. Sometimes that means dying. Sometimes that means killing a whole lot of people."
Avatar of Destruction ∞ Mind Lord ∞ Heavy Armorer Master ∞ Master Pikeman ∞ Master Desert Harvester
Expert Prime Roots Forager ∞ Master of Life ∞ Executioner ∞ Expert Light Armorer ∞ Master of Torment
Saga of Ryzom: In public Beta since Sept '04!
User avatar
ambika
Posts: 272
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:00 am

Re: False Declarations? o.0

Post by ambika »

totnkopf wrote:Sorry, ambi, but gotta disagree on how much of that is illegal. Show me where the CoC outlines all that. I can't really show you where the CoC doesn't since I'd not be pointing to anything...

As I said before, unless the CoC lays out exactly was is an exploit/illegal action, then the GMs cannot enforce it.

Lawrence on Kill Stealing: http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170174&postcount=58 . Essentially, there are things that are labeled by players as exploits. While they are not actually against the CoC, the community has labeled them as taboo. Things like kill stealing for example. Instead of the GMs enforcing it (as they can't since its not part of the CoC), its up to the community to do it.

I attempted to look for the thread on a Q&A about outposts, but was unable to find it. In it, the topic of aggro dragging and outposts was brought up. Essentially, if a mob ended up in the fight, it was part of the game, regardless of how it got there. Its a similar response to the mobs in the old lands. Aggro dragging was essentially declared a valid tactic and no one i know of was ever even warned by the GMs about it (even when a GM was standing right in front of people who were doing it). If I find the thread ever, I'll add it in.


Hmm...that's interesting then cause I was told by GMs before that what I stated was illegal really was (sent in tells to bug them...lol). I didn't even bother screencapping since I thought it was part of the rules and whatnot. However, that was months ago before I took my break (maybe even pre-merger?). :/ If that's the case I retract what I've said before since I had been told otherwise on different occassions. Doesn't change the way I feel about false declarations though. lol
blaah
Posts: 1333
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:43 am

Re: False Declarations? o.0

Post by blaah »

ambika wrote:Nice rhetoric but no catch. Kill-stealing is the act in which a person intentionally steals mobs that another group/person has already begun killing. There are times were accidents happen(2 teams on a spawn).
players (in all games ;-) have decided that this should be bannable (and i agree). there is usually game mechanics to prevent this (moblocking, more than 50% damage gets the kill).

if player does it repeatedly to you, it's harassment.
ambika wrote:Now this we can argue all day. Unlike the others, you're not using any leverage to level faster (as in cliffing) or harrassing others (as in kill-stealing). Therefore, to me I can see why it's not considered an exploit.
_some_ think it is some think it's not.
next time,time yourself, how fast you can dig 1k mats when you tp'ing to town and droping them to packer or when you droping them to hawker and then tp'ing to town when you have 1k mats
(1k is too low, but even one tp takes a lot of digging time away)
what goes to hawker, should stay at hawker ;-)
User avatar
ambika
Posts: 272
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:00 am

Re: False Declarations? o.0

Post by ambika »

blaah wrote: _some_ think it is some think it's not.
next time,time yourself, how fast you can dig 1k mats when you tp'ing to town and droping them to packer or when you droping them to hawker and then tp'ing to town when you have 1k mats
(1k is too low, but even one tp takes a lot of digging time away)
what goes to hawker, should stay at hawker ;-)

That's the thing...I used to store at merchants for one reason...in 250 zones...I couldn't just TP. So I used the hawker because one of the other game mechanics didn't allow me to TP back into the zone (when KT was down in FF, I would dig in the canyon part of SC where I would TP out or if the season was right, I would just go to the hawker). I couldn't bring in packers because I would use the portal to get into it (through Kara Windy Gate TP).

Now that I can TP in much more easily, I rarely do it anymore (unless I dig for hours and at the end I grab all the stuff from merchants and slowly tp everything to my packers...560 mats at a time).

And, I would be COMPLETELY ok with "what goes to a hawker, should stay at a hawker" because I would still be able to stay at my digging spot till I was completely done (then I could TP every thing once I was done which I prefer).

However, all you do by going to the hawker is save time and since everyone can do it easily without interfering with each other...what's so wrong about it? Oo;


EDIT: As for the Kill-stealing...I SERIOUSLY thought it was a bannable offense...at least a temp ban. I recalled being told it was a big no-no. *sighs* Kind of disappointing...
User avatar
raisrev1
Posts: 366
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:58 pm

Re: False Declarations? o.0

Post by raisrev1 »

ambika wrote:Aggro-dragging allowed only then because of no DP. They obviously saw people would either say "oh accident" or too many cases where it would be too difficult to prove who is to blame. Easiest solution would be to remove mobs or just remove dp. In any other case, it's NOT allowed.

For PvP cliffing, it goes both ways. The person getting attacked can attack back...it's almost as if there IS no obstacles (unlses you're melee..move back just out of range...-_-; ). No person is as "dumb" as a mob to run TO the wall (speaking for those melee who wouldn't be able to hit someone on a cliff) knowing they can't deal any damage. Don't approve of this, but it's something one can easily avoid.
PvE cliffing: Not allowed. Not sure where you get this. I've asked myself and they said "no". Doesn't stop people from doing it.

Kill stealing: Not Allowed. People still do it but luckily it's not a huge problem here. Not sure where ya get the idea it's allowed.

Merchant Storage: Allowed and not an exploit. Not sure why this would bother anyone. Doesn't take up any space on the merchant (there's no limit how many items the population as a whole can put on the merchants). People can use filters. At most people will see those mats and wish they could buy it. Not a discomfort to anyone (especially on the level of Kill stealing of aggro dragging). I would see this as a problem if we had the ability to add-on storage to our apartments or buy more packers...


If you can quote rom the CoC or GM saying that the first 4 is allowed and the 5th is an exploit (how can it be when it doesn't give you an advantage over others as far as leveling goes nor does it take the fun from anyone in-game)...go for it.

(I appologize for any spelling or Gramatical errors, im doing this very late at night :P )
Well, I cant say im for or against the whole continuous attack declarations, but i found the page for the agro dragging, at least during OP battles, and in esscence everywhere else if you think about it closely enough http://www.ryzom.com/?page=news&id=1251 will be located at the bottom of the page.

Aggro Dragging. Now i do despise Aggro Dragging, but From an RP and a realistic perspective it is a valid tactic, and from what i have seen it appears that the only place this would be a problem OP wise is the OPs that happen to be next to a boss agro mob (2 blackstars), particuarly the ones in PR (which have not been activated, yet). However they are still a logical (thou a very Dirty tactic), as the before mentioned link stated both sides can do it. Now from a harvesters perspective... Similar thing, its low but its how things would happen realisticly. People competing over "valuble" resources, the Low would use Lowly tactics. While the other may not do so in return, but in the PR, (addmitadly i have not been down there since the OP/Fame patch so im not sure the accuracy of the following statement) its a Guild PvP, and as such, you can "fight" over said resources Or at same time Ally with each other and share the mats. Or as most do, Ignore it and move on to another spot.

Cliffing, now On the one hand I can see the "exploit" here, but still it is a valid tactic that you would still realisticly see. Even with the PvP, you can always move out of range, however I do agree it is very difficult to target the attacker in response, but that was the point. A sniper would pick a spot from which he would not be seen before making his shot, thus not be attacked back. Now taking advantage of "dumb" AI mobs, well it can go both ways, Realisticly most creatures would in actuality try to run away rather than go after the attacker, but then that would invite some major exploitations here, still wouldnt it be logical to put some sort of barrier between you and something big and scary? Besides atm AI can only go so far.


Kill Stealing, now I can go on and on about this one, but I wont. But...I know sometimes its on accident, but there are times its very obvious when someone is already attacking the creature, so leave it alone. Nuff said.

Merchant storage, Hmm hard to say here, while i understand why people do it, I also understand why people are mad about it. Here is what i think those whom do it should do...only put up choice mats or lower there at those prices for storage, that way the rest of us whom might be looking for something good, dont get "disapointed" when they see some Supreme or Excelent mats that are at outrageous prices, Craft those or store them in your apt/Guildhall. Thats my view.
Last edited by raisrev1 on Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Daemion Last of the Shadow Dragons
Leader of the Dragons of Shadow



May the Shadows Watch over you

User avatar
jared96
Posts: 733
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 6:38 am

Re: False Declarations? o.0

Post by jared96 »

There seems to be a readily solveable solution.

1. A guild which declares war on an outpost must be "committed" to that outpost. If Guild A declares war on Guild X at 2 pm whatever,then ALL OF ITS MEMBERS shall be rendered powerless if attacking any other guild outpost.

2. Attacking Guild's get 3 reschedules and they are knocked off the que.

3. Eliminate scheduling of war on nationalholidays.

4. The cost of a 1st attack shall be the QL x 10,000.....each subsequent attack by same guild increases cost by 50%.

Of course these solutions will only open up a whole slew of new ones. In addition to alt players, we'll have alt guilds popping up all to try and solve an idea which was never quite well enough thought out in the first place.

Doesn't solve all the problems but I still see OP's aas currentlyimplemented, as continuing to erode the player base. On one hand it's given a lot of long time "bored" and "hi level" players something new and fun to do. On the other,it's excluded a lot of players from full access to the game's features.

There's at least 5 "bye" threads since the holiday. People are getting cranked about exploits and some guilds are just forced out all together. A guild with a wide mix of races for example is pretty screwed as a sizeableportion will be travel limited no mater which way they go. A guild with a mix of US and UK players puts them in a tough position to attack / defend.

A Matisian member of a Fyros based guild is now denied timely acces to "Da Bog" to continue digging. His 200+ forest skill must be swapped for 52 desert. Other choice is to quit guild. His 200+ crafting skill with matis mats suffers similarly.
iwojimmy
Posts: 967
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:00 am

Re: False Declarations? o.0

Post by iwojimmy »

jared96 wrote:
3. Eliminate scheduling of war on nationalholidays.
whose ?

just because the US make a fuss over valentines day or whatever doesnt mean the rest of us care, and I dont expect anyone else to particularrly worry over Australia Day or its like. In fact, public holidays may be some peoples best opportunity to be online and playing.

While the actual OP battles I have been in have been loads of fun, the bitterness and emnity arising between some players may not be totally the fault of the PvP implementation, but it is certainly contributing.
:(
User avatar
sprite
Posts: 3169
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:36 pm

Re: False Declarations? o.0

Post by sprite »

iwojimmy wrote:just because the US make a fuss over valentines day or whatever doesnt mean the rest of us care, and I dont expect anyone else to particularrly worry over Australia Day or its like.
Plus we'd get (at least) two Mother's Day holidays - one for the states date and one for the Euro one :D
"the" spriteh
SoTR
[size=-4]Read it, know it, live it
Remember kids, IOWIYAFOO![/size]
Post Reply

Return to “General”