Morality and Outposts

[danolt]

I am not arguing that AA has a higher moral claim to the BoH outpost. They don't. What I am arguing is that it is not immoral to attack it.

However, for me to assume that BoH will not want to walk from Fyros or Zoari to defend their outpost when spires go live is a pretty safe assumption. They will have to control the spires in order to TP into Loria. Other Kami guilds will use this to attack the neighboring spires in WoM and Liberty Lake. Eventually, most of the outposts in Aedan Aqueous will be controlled by the three other races. Zoari and Fyros will enter as conquerors. The Matis will have to defend its southern border and try to and hold the Loria outposts or be hopelessly behind in the arms race.

It does not matter what the Band of Hawks intentions are. Fate will not allow any other outcome.

Pero

[ncrijns]

That's overreacting Pero. On getting to Loria, there is a way, an ancient way used by Trykers since times past. The DP way! Unless ofcourse the spawnpoint is taken out of Loria.

I don't mind the Outpost being attacked, that's what it's for. What I did mind was the half thought out reasons and accusation that made up the whole reason why BoH shouldn't have Whirling Outpost.

If the reason was only, you're Kami and prepare for a challenge. Sure, honourable challenges are great. A duel between guilds. If the reason was only, we think we can beat you, so we want to try, again an honourable challenge, great! But that wasn't it, and that was what got me really upset. That's over and behind now, but there is a great difference in the way an attack can proposed, for the fiasco shown to an honourable challenge not unsimilar to a duel.

To get back on track, there are plenty of ways for BoH, and Kami to Whirling Oupost should they want to get there, without a TP. Fate isn't set in stone thanks to 1 outpost taken by a Kami guild in Tryker.

Intentions do matter. You can choose to stand by your friends, wether they are Kami, or Karavan, or neutral instead of making the onesided pick and banning the 'other' side.

[danolt]

For a BoH member to use the DP way, a Kami would have to have the ability to TP into the region, and then respawn to Loria. This allows a breech in the defenses of the lake lands that the Fyros and the Zoari will not ignore.

[iwojimmy]

For myself, I am going to approach this from totally the opposite direction to Pero. Forget Factions, forget races, dont even worry about guilds unless you know the people in them personally. Morality is personal. it comes from you, and is your own responsibility. If you act in a manner that will ruin another persons enjoyment of Ryzom, you are (CoC forbids me from describing you properly). If you betray your friends, then that says what your friendship is worth.
Attacking some guilds outpost should not be a big morality question, there are guilds who would probably get upset if no-one attacked theirs. For them, that particular sub-aspect of the entire Ryzom game seems to have become all important, and they dont seem to appreciate anyone else playing the game the way those other people want to (drifting off-topic). Getting back to the outposts, Attacking outposts is part of the game now, attacking PvP flagged players is in as well, but 'personal' attacks I am pretty sure are still excluded by the CoC. I dont beleive in attacking people to whom I owe a debt of honor - unless I know them well enough and know they enjoy the PvP gameplay, with them I have no problem swapping nukes at 15 paces - Total strangers arent a problem, there is no personal connection so the relationship will develop however it does.
Strategic considerations and jingoistic fervour may call for an attack on "foreign" (Kami in this case) outposts within a nations borders, but I will not participate in an attack on Kenshiro and the Band of Hawks because it would be morally wrong for me. If it had been another Kami aligned guild... it would depend on who it was exactly the same,

They may provide the setting, but we are the people playing the game.

[walls124]

For a BoH member to use the DP way, a Kami would have to have the ability to TP into the region, and then respawn to Loria. This allows a breech in the defenses of the lake lands that the Fyros and the Zoari will not ignore.

Pero... Go and read up on how Spires are supposed to work. Besides I don't think they are going to show up for several months yet.

Allso there are still many points that need clarification. not sure if Outpost=spires placement. Anyway we can allways tp to capitals. Respawn... Probally but not so clear what the intention are.

Breach in the defenses... Well you can't do much about the capitall. But taking your thoughts alittle farther. To keep kami out. All regions must be karavan controlled. So what about neutrals? Any neutral region will grant both sides access to tp's. But if a faction holds an area where does that leave neutrals? To little info to answer that.

Watryk

[ncrijns]

For a BoH member to use the DP way, a Kami would have to have the ability to TP into the region, and then respawn to Loria. This allows a breech in the defenses of the lake lands that the Fyros and the Zoari will not ignore.

Everyone can TP to a capitol and into a region. This not only goes up for Tryker lands, but for all lands. Making this breech in defences exists in all the countries. In essence all the Outposts in spawn zones and open country open to attack for the faction that isn't controlling the land itself. Assuming the faction controlling the Spire will control the land.

But then, the Outpost, while being part of the PvP, aren't part of the global FvF. It's entirely possible for a team that isn't participating in the global FvF, in which the Spires matter, to attack and conquer an Outpost.

[danolt]

a) Respawn

It is impossible to respawn in a region owned by an opposing faction. It is possible to respawn in a neutral region, a region controlled by one’s faction, or in one’s own capital.

b) Teleportation tickets

It is impossible to use TP tickets when their destination is an area owned by an opposing faction. It is possible to use TP tickets in neutral areas, areas controlled by one’s faction, or in capitals.

So yes, you would be able to TP into Fairhaven. However, The respawn to Loria is not a guarantee.

Good Points.

Pero

[akm72]

...Eventually, most of the outposts in Aedan Aqueous will be controlled by the three other races. Zoari and Fyros will enter as conquerors. The Matis will have to defend its southern border and try to and hold the Loria outposts or be hopelessly behind in the arms race...

You seem to be under the misapprehension that you're fighting a defensive war against an aggressive Zorai/Fyros/Kami alliance. Not true, by siding with the Karavan, you're the one who is going to be trying to conquer the Zorai/Fyros lands by the side of your Matis masters (sorry, I mean allies).

If the Matis do invade the lakes, we can always ask the Fyros and Zorai guilds to help keep them out. Something that will only be possible if we avoid becoming Karavan fanatics and maintain friendly relations with them.

On the other hand, if your alliance with the Matis is successful,and you do manage to subdue the Fyros and Zorai, who will hold the Matis back the next time they decide to invade the lakes and enslave us?

[footkips]

Oo I've got to respond to Mioette's post. First off the Matis can't invade anything, only guilds or factions can. Now if a guild happens to be exclusively Matis....then okay.

Regarding the upcoming faction wars: I can't speak for all guilds, but to my knowledge there is no Matis karavan group looking to takeover any of our Trykers friends lands. On the contrary, most would fight to uphold their right to it. We do worry about kami alignment there knocking on our door, so Zorai or Fyros kami intrusion there would be very threatening.

I'm not sure the Fyros/Zorai realize that many karavan guilds have both Matis and Tryker members in them, but few Fyros and Zorai. As it is for the kami on the other side. Any members within the same guild generally will not make war on each other.

Tyker-kami presence in Loria is something that would concern the karavan-Matis, but could perhaps be moderated by negotiation. It is a potential staging ground for attack on us.

Loss of the kara tp in Loria is somewhat alleviated by the presence of the kara tp just on the other side of the portal in Heretic's Hovel. So those who wish to dig in Loria can access it from either side, as available.

Keetch

[swe999]

Pero, and others, diplomacy and courtesy obscure what lays before you.
The goal for any given guild is to acquire the greatest number of outposts for their faction within their chosen land, and then secondly to expand into other lands.

What to attack can be as simple as any outpost that you have a chance to overtake.

That said, there is but one level deeper, establishing yourself as enough of a threat that guilds will ally with you, without ganging up on you... but that is politics and needless games.

Personally, I have a problem with alliances derived strictly from religion or country, but openly... the cards must be played rather than the intentions.

Glory to the Kami. The Atysian soul is only true within the Zoraï.