poll: PR tp restriction for neutrals

[kostika]

Guess you're talking about how neutrals can get all racial spells and crafting any race they want. That must really be a pain in the neck. It also must be tough being able to run into any town/camp and be protected by its guards instead of killed on sight.

Actually neutrals can still be attacked by tribes if their fame is low enough. Kult neutrality only caps positive fame.

[sk8rss]

Ok, as I read more, I'm getting more and more frustrated. I'm gonna make reactions here to a whole bunch of posts, and as far as I know, it's impossible to add quotes as you go, so I'm not quoting you so READ CAREFULLY! Remember what you posted and see if I'm responding to you, when in doubt, I probably am.

Someone complained about "new" players being unable to do anything. New players are neutral, not undecided. Neutrals can have access to many of the TPs, undecided can't have any.

Ok, two birds here, neutrals lost access to 5% of rites/tps (this was an estimation from someone so I understand it's not EXACTLY accurate, but we're going on the assumption that the tps lost by neutrals, aka access to zones, not having two of each zone, is <50%, PR excluded cause i don't know) On a rough estimation, we've lost 50%.

Those ready to earn the right to use the Kami's TPs in the PR but are complaining about mechanics, since the mechanics are in the way do you even KNOW what you'll have to do? What if that were announcing allegience ot the kami or karavan (oh, it is....). Nevermind, looks like I just nullified my own paragraph.

Ok, nevrax made it impossible for people to play the way they're used to... No, no wait, not the way you're used to playing, but the way you used to play. It's like someone took daddy's car keys and when daddy wants 'em back cause he wants to go to work, baby cries.

Oh, this one had me chuckling, someone not being able to play the game to the fullest because they're not kami or karavan. Being Kami or Karavan makes you able to play the game only 50% (not honestly IMO, but the way everyone's complaining that the TPs are the WHOLE game, I'm gonna spend some time chillin on your level)

Ok, I KNOW cult neutrality only caps tribe fames at 50%, but it also doesn't cap ANY at -50%. There are places in this game where I can NEVER run to again with agro on my tail and expect to be saved.

Listen, the way I see it is we're witnessing another case of people complaining enough and getting what they wanted. Then they saw that complaining got what they wanted, so they're gonna complain more. Eventually, if everyone complains enough this game will be everything to everyone, keep it up guys. There were no traces of neutrality in the original game, everyone complained and it appeared. Does anyone grasp exactly how hard nevrax probably (yeah probably ok, I know, you know more than me about this, and probably everything if I argued the side opposite yours ) put in to accomodating people who wanted a side that was never going to be there in the first place?

[lathan]

Guess you're talking about how neutrals can get all racial spells and crafting any race they want.

Just like a faction-aligned homin can

There are some false assumptions being made here, as well as some false memories. One of the latter is that we had to run everywhere when there were no tp's in game. First of all (and this is a fairly minor point) Atys was smaller then, and there wasn't such a need to get to the lvl 250 regions and pr. Gear bonus wasn't nearly as important as it is now, and even as a high lvl you could get xp by stacking up mob (take a lot of easier mob at the same time you get more xp). Add to that a few kitin raids and suddenly you're 250. Why bother trekking all the way up to GoC or void to find harder mob? Also, back then, exploring atys was fun. I used to run one or two treks a day in beta, taking whoever wanted to go somewhere there. Now there's just not the same sort of need for it, since most people have been where they needed to go. There can't be many homins who have been in the game since retail and haven't been over every inch of Atys.

The second point is that we didn't by any means run all over the place.. we had something nearly as good as tp-ing, which was death-porting. Once you had all the spawns, you just find a handy bunch of kitin and leap into it, and rez at the spawn nearest the place you want to go to. Since there was no dp around then, it didn't matter if you had to die 3 times to get where you were going.

As for the pr restrictions.. well, anyone who digs high lvl pr knows how much of a pain, for example, running from the Sunken City kami tp up to the oath spot in the north of the region is. Especially since most high-level pr diggers solo these routes due to the length of time they may have to camp spots and the pointlessness of anyone trying to hunt (for xp) in pr. Now add to that running all the way through void and across from the western spawn point in wastelands, and it would be a nightmare. I know the point has been made often, but it still doesn't seem to sink in: That doesn't compare to having to run even a long-ish distance across a single region from a kami to karavan (or vice-versa) tp. With the activation of faction tp's in 250 areas, even taking into account the loss of opposing faction tp's, I think that things might have even got easier for faction-aligned homins than they were before. With the exception of pr, which has got a little harder imo. At any rate, from a game-mechanic PoV, I wouldn't swap my aligned status for neutral unless there were some serious benefits to it.

[lathan]

Ok, two birds here, neutrals lost access to 5% of rites/tps (this was an estimation from someone so I understand it's not EXACTLY accurate, but we're going on the assumption that the tps lost by neutrals, aka access to zones, not having two of each zone, is <50%, PR excluded cause i don't know) On a rough estimation, we've lost 50%.

Ok, to start with, I don't think neutrals have lost access to any of the rites currently in the game. That is because the rites currently in the game are the low lvl rites, which are available to everyone. The plan is to implement rites which are available only to people with a sufficiently high fame, and this will necessarily exclude neutrals.

As far as tp's go, you are correct that, roughly, aligned homins have lost access to 50% of the tp's. In actuality it is a little less, since there are new tp's being opened up. I reckon it's more like 40%.

Neutral homins, on the other hand, used to have at least 2 tp's in every region pre-patch. Now they have 1 tp in most but my no means all regions (up to and including red regions). So they've lost at least 50% of the tp's. Then add to that that they've lost the entirety of pr (except nexus), which amounts to maybe 20% of the tp's in game (I'm trying to keep this conservative here). I don't really see them as losing ql 250 areas so much as not gaining them (since only GoC was active before the patch anyway) so I'm not going to count that. So I think if we're talking percentages, neutrals have lost more like 70% of the tp's, compared to aligned homin's 40%. That's not even getting (back) into the thorny topic of where the tp's are that they have lost

Edit: I know the above is a fairly simplistic analysis, but if someone does a more in-depth one I'm sure it won't come up too different!

Another Edit: Ok, I did a more in-depth one, looking at BM's site and marjo's post on which tp's neutrals could get, and it's more like 55% lost for neutrals. Still a considerable difference, imo.

[weeman07]

as a neutral i seemed to lose access to only the TP`s in lvl 100 area`s
Now that im Kami alligned i have access to 1 in each area so ive lost use of 50% as they are Karavan.There are 2 TP`s in each region now ive managed to get all the Matis ones now so my collection is nearly complete

[blaah]

as a neutral i seemed to lose access to only the TP`s in lvl 100 area`s

and all pr tp's when you neutrals (still can get nexus tp's)

Now that im Kami alligned i have access to 1 in each area so ive lost use of 50% as they are Karavan.There are 2 TP`s in each region now ive managed to get all the Matis ones now so my collection is nearly complete

grats, but when spires go alive, kami/kara will initially* lose access to opposing side lands (kami will lose matis/tryker, kara will lose zorai/fyros), i think both still can tp to capitals.

* another thing to fight over with. for example kara can take over fyros regions, and denying kami tp'ing there.

[sidusar]

On a note about the TPs. I'm not worried about the PR or 250 areas. Ya wanna know what bugs me? I can't even TP to Min Cho. Or any other city in a lvl 50 area. But I can get to all the cities in Fyros. (Not complaining about the Fyros thing, but it jsut makes it confusing.)

I couldn't agree more. No access to PR is annoying but I'm not a PR forager so it's not more than an inconvenience to me. No access to purple zones means I can't forage in GoC anymore (nearest KoD altar is miles away), which is very disapointing with forest being my only forage skill above 200, but ultimately I can live with it. But not being able to teleport to any of the towns is what really annoys me enough that I don't think I can remain neutral forever.

High-level altars I understand, but it makes no sense to me at all why these altars aren't open to everyone. From a game-mechanic point of view, new players will always be neutral and these are the first altars they come across outside of the capitals. From a lore point of view these are altars that give access to the towns, and it would stand to reason anyone would be able to use them except those have below -50 fame with the civilisation.

Edit: I know the above is a fairly simplistic analysis, but if someone does a more in-depth one I'm sure it won't come up too different!

Another Edit: Ok, I did a more in-depth one, looking at BM's site and marjo's post on which tp's neutrals could get, and it's more like 55% lost for neutrals. Still a considerable difference, imo.

You're making this far too difficult

Before the patch, there was no difference between karavan/kami/neutral. There were 59 active TPs that everyone could use.

Now once everything works as it should (I hear stories that some altars are not yet functioning as intended) then the numbers will be:
Karavaneers can use 45 altars
Kamist can use 42 altars
Neutrals can use 39 altars
So that 24% less, 29% less and 34% less compared to the previous 59 altars, respectively. Not nearly 50%.

The only cause of this difference are the town altars. Karavaneers have 6 that only they can use (Natae, Davae, Avalae, Avendale, Crystabell, Windermeer), and Kamists have 3 that one they can use (Jen-Lai, Hoi-Cho, Min-Cho). If the towns did not have altars every side would have access to 39 altars.

That's another reason why I think the town altars should just open to everyone so that everyone has the exact same number of 48 altars.

Ofcourse, this is just raw numbers, not considering location. I could (and do) argue that it's pointless to have access to both altars in the capitals, since they're not even 200 meter apart, and that's already 4 less 'effective altars' for neutrals. Karavaneers have a similar thing with Loria and HH altars being on opposite sides of the same portal, so effectively it might as well be one altar.

The real problem isn't how many TPs neutrals have, but which ones they have. Karavan and Kami both have acess to one altar in every region, so overall they have nice spreadout teleport options. Neutrals often have acess to two teleports in the same region that are pretty close together, and then no teleport at all in another area.

[scarazi]

indeed, the banning of neutrals to the higher level towns means that it takes atleast an hour just to check the vendors of the four towns for grinding mats for sale, just another piece of bad game design. it`s pointless, doesn`t make it harder, just makes it boring and mind-numbingly time consuming.

[lathan]

The only cause of this difference are the town altars. Karavaneers have 6 that only they can use (Natae, Davae, Avalae, Avendale, Crystabell, Windermeer), and Kamists have 3 that one they can use (Jen-Lai, Hoi-Cho, Min-Cho). If the towns did not have altars every side would have access to 39 altars.

Hmm.. kamists can't use Fyros town tp's?? How did that one fly with the rp?

And, just for the record, I was counting tp's lost out of those we had, rather than new ones that we didn't have access to before, i.e. places we were excluded from.

[sidusar]

Hmm.. kamists can't use Fyros town tp's?? How did that one fly with the rp?

And, just for the record, I was counting tp's lost out of those we had, rather than new ones that we didn't have access to before, i.e. places we were excluded from.

Oh, they can, but neutrals can too. The Zorai town TPs can only be used by Kamists.

Ah, okay then. Yeah then you'd come to the conclusion neutrals lost 36 out of 59 teleports. I just think what they gained should be included too. Ofcourse there's a lot of ways to look at it; neutrals lost access to 13 regions against 0 for the kamists or karavaneers.