poll: PR tp restriction for neutrals

[gwythion]

I am still confused about why Nevrax are spending their dev time trying to add in support for neutrals. Atys is governed by the kami and karavan. they control everything, every player makes use of thier services. Trying to force in a neutral faction just seems to be making a mess of things.

In my more optimistic moments I would say the Nevrax are adding support for neutrals for a number of reasons. To make the game richer as an environment, and to fulfill a promise made earlier that neutrals would be a playable option. As others have said the biggest single problem is the they have placed a herd of cats in the category of neutral. There are many different reasons why people do not wish to align with either the Kami or the Karavan. This means that their desires and aims are not easily fulfilled.

To those of you that want to be neutral i have a question, why do you expect to have all the benefits that a factioned player would have? we live with our gods close by, you have a choice not to follow them and it will prove a more difficult road if you do so.

Actually I do not want to have the same benefits. I would prefer to have appropriate but equivalent benefits. As to the gods well, that can be argued forever and a day. I could for example claim that there are no gods, just that two races have used their powers to gain control over the lives of Homin. Can you actually explain the resurection process? It could as easily be a product of the enviroment of atys, as be a function of the karavan and the kami. If the aim had been to have a game where people all committed to one side or the other then the background should have been written differently. It should have been presented as true fact, the style and asides all reduce this. It would have been wiser too if the Tryker race background had been very different as it appeals to people that I suspect would be less likely to join either faction much more so than any of the other races in anycase. I would say that there is no intrinsic reason why the road of the neutral should be more difficult just different to the cult aligned.

Just because in the past we could all do everything is not a good reason! There used to be so much talk on these forums about the game not moving forward, no rich story, etc, etc. Now it is everyone would prefer the devs not to bother? These changes are imo things that would have been good to have in game from the start, as they make sense in the context of the lore. they werent, as no mmog launches with every feature intact and working as intended.

I look forward to things moving forward, and whilst I am sure that there are parts of the new system I will not like, I hope there will be parts I do like. I would like to be able to take part in future events. Tryton has said that there should be rewards for neutrals at some future point. As to what the story is or should be, that is supposed to be part of the journey, the lore as it is has very many gaps to be filled, and lots of people have different views as to what should be in those gaps, even within those that are faction aligned. What is right for the game now is not necessarily what was intended at release. The rest of the journey should start from where we are are not where we would have been. I am reminded of a joke the punch line of which is "If you want to get there I would not have started from here."

[gwythion]

So instead you're a puppet with sight. You complain and moan, whine and groan, yet you're still here, and you're still paying your sub. So, where it matters to Nevrax, you're ok with everything they're doing because, in the end, they still get their money and you're still here. If you truly wanted to show them you didn't agree with these changes, then you'd have canceled your sub and moved on.

The problem is that Nevrax say that they want to listen to players and make the neutrals playable. I do not know what things will be like in a years time. On my good days I think neutrals will be a playable faction, with their own rewards. On my bad days I think that this is just going to be a lingering death that would have been better never proposed by Nevrax whatever the players said. If Nevrax had a clear idea of what playing a neutral meant to the players then I suspect that it was only part of what all of those players that would be neutral meant.

However, let me take a different approach here. What kind of things do you expect to get as a Neutral (remember this has to make sense both for game mechanics AND with the story. Kara/kami aren't gonna bend over backwards and give rewards to those who defy them). Creating a whole new "faction" doesn't work, as Aajolea has pointed out, since they lack unity in their goals. Some are pacificts who want no war, others want the ability to do everything they can, just not commit themselves to a faction. So instead, the neutrals should get all the TPs, while those who had the courage to commit themselves to a faction lose half of them? and why would that make sense in a roleplay sense? the kara/kami just decided to let them compete with those who are faithful? doesn't make sense.

And there is me who would like Tryton to come up with an actual plan of action behind his rhetoric. A plan that would lead to the Karavan and the Kami being forced off atys and allowing the Homins to carve out their own path to the future.

So, you're neutral, you get some of the cookies. You're kami, you get some of the cookies. And you're kara, you get some of the cookies. None of them get ALL of the cookies and thats the way it should be. If one side got ALL, then everyone would be neutral, but not pacifists, which makes no sense either, since it'd be everyone under the neutral banner, yet still RPing their current stance. The 'neutral' kami battling for the 'neutral' kara outposts, etc.

So all in all, if you have the faith and are willing to prove it, you're granted rewards. If you shun the gods, then by all means be prepared to rely on only yourself and those willing to take the same path as yourself. You're not losing all the TPs and rites, just SOME of them. The kami and kara were kind enough to offer those who shun them some reward, perhaps as a symbol of what they could offer if that neutral char were to join them.

For myself I do not plan on taking any Kami or Karavan rites at all, it would not be right for my character. I view the tps as a purely merchant type activity. I pay so many dappers to be transported to a location, end of story, I am quite happy to believe that they have a technology or magic to do this, I do not have to either worship or believe in the existance of any god for this to work. However I would like to see things available for neutrals that would require them to do things in order to get them.

It seems to me that the current proposal for changes taken as whole has a number of holes. Not the least of which is the extent to which there will be token aligned characters that will do just enough to gain cult membership and access to tps but then never do a thing again for that faction. Continuing Rewards of any type it seems to me should require some form of continuing payment and not just dappers. This could be as simple as fame dropping overtime if not regularly topped up. Hopefully there will be different rewards tied to various levels of fame so as to give more meaning to having a high fame. The problem here is that if they do introduce rewards for neutrals via Tryton how can that really work. It has seemed to me for quite some time that Tryton should be another faction in its own right as it is not really neutral at all.

[kostika]

"You see how we can move you around and make travel so easy, however, to be taken any further, it is time you proved your faith to our cause. We wouldn't want a mighty warrior being swayed to the side of the karavan, so before we get you to the areas where you can truly hone your skills and become a master, you must first dedicate yourself to our cause. Once done, you will be rewarded with the gifts reserved only for those truly faithful"

Yes they are a little. The addition of the nice list of TPs for neutrals was a good move by nevrax to show the tempting of homins. But taking away the PR completely is bound to piss people off and actually it has. That's why the only thing I ask as a player is for a single set of PR TPs for neutrals. It fits with the tempting of the of the homins to their side.

But you were arguing that they should spern neutrals, which is what prompted my post in the first place.

[lathan]

Well, it looks to me like going ostensibly faction-aligned, while basically playing neutral (I don't need to do any more missions for the karavan considering the fame I already have with them, and pvp flag will be off, so no fighting in their little scuffle either) seems like the easy way for me. Hard to find the drawbacks, tbh. Ok, I may have different tp's, but at least I know I'll have one in every zone I need to get to (at least one 250 zone, all the pr zones etc).

I have to say I'll admire any guild that stays neutral through implementation of the FvF system, but I honestly wonder why bother, unless it is a pure rp reason. Even then and ic I think there could be a case for saying "I follow you guys now" to get more goodies (and pr access), even if you don't believe in the deity in question.

I can't believe I'm actually advocating going faction-aligned, but I just don't see staying neutral as having any potential for being fun. And if it's not fun, what are we paying/playing for?

[blaah]

You're not losing all the TPs and rites, just SOME of them.

even if it would only be 5% (have not done the math, but it's not important) from todays tp neutal will lose, it hits hard if there is tp's you need every day to lvl your char (which PR tp's are for high lvl PR digger and crafter who depend on pr mats he/she digs).

The kami and kara were kind enough to offer those who shun them some reward, perhaps as a symbol of what they could offer if that neutral char were to join them.

yes, nevrax presents PR as a reward for following kami/kara. but is this actually a reward after every one of us have had free access to them for a year ?

for a birthday, you get year old toy. it's from your toy box. are you happy ?
that's what nevrax is doing with PR teleport access.

this kami/kara split should have happened from starts and then i (and probably all of us) would have accepted it.
this tight restrictions (for neutrals) this far in game IS bad for current playerbase.

i agree that neutrals dont need to get anything free. but they dont get anything for a price either.
i would happily raise 10 kami or kara faction points per week if i could get access to pr tp's.

[rushin]

can i have a cookie?

i've just tried re-reading all the fame/faction stuff and talked to some people about it and i am so confused now.. maybe i just go dig in a dark corner and stop trying to understand such things. ahh wait a minute thats what i do already..

[totnkopf]

If Nevrax had a clear idea of what playing a neutral meant to the players then I suspect that it was only part of what all of those players that would be neutral meant.

The problem is that not even those who are complaining of not having anything for neutrals aren't of the same mindset. How do you expect Nevrax to create a whole set of neutral stuff when being 'neutral' means so many different things. Some claim neutral to be pacifists. others just not aligned with kami/kara, but still want to battle it out with outposts and spires. Those are two very different meanings of neutral and can't both be catered to.

this kami/kara split should have happened from starts and then i (and probably all of us) would have accepted it.

you're right. it should have started from the beginning. But lets also recall that outposts and such were supposed to be in front the start too. Now they're coming, so the changes that should have happened then are happening now. People complained about not having all the stuff that was in the manual, well, we're finally getting some of it, and yet people still are complaining. This world is run by the kami and kara. They saved you all from destruction. Turning your backs on them is a bold move, but means you're on your own. The prime roots hold some of the best mats in the game, so why would the kami and karavan allow you access to them if you won't be using them in their name?

Those who leveled only PR dig, well, they can have a small walk from nexus to umbra to get those mats. It also tends to be that those who level PR have also leveled another dig, so no loss there as they have a dig to fall back on if they don't feel up to the walk.

Fight for a neutral side all you want, its not really part of the game in the way it was designed. There is an option for neutrality (it may not be one you like, but it IS one) and so Nevrax lived up to its promise of neutral options. If they hadn't, being a ceratin char would automaticall assign you a civ and a faction based on the storyline. However, you could be a Zorai who its a tryker citizen and is a karavan if you earned them. If you didn't earn anything, you remain neutral and gain the +s and -s of that.

*gives cookie to Rushin* "here you go... now run along and dig up a storm... and if you feel like sharing mats, lemme know"

[iwojimmy]

Well, it looks to me like going ostensibly faction-aligned, while basically playing neutral (I don't need to do any more missions for the karavan considering the fame I already have with them, and pvp flag will be off, so no fighting in their little scuffle either) seems like the easy way for me. Hard to find the drawbacks, tbh. Ok, I may have different tp's, but at least I know I'll have one in every zone I need to get to (at least one 250 zone, all the pr zones etc).

I have to say I'll admire any guild that stays neutral through implementation of the FvF system, but I honestly wonder why bother, unless it is a pure rp reason. Even then and ic I think there could be a case for saying "I follow you guys now" to get more goodies (and pr access), even if you don't believe in the deity in question.

I can't believe I'm actually advocating going faction-aligned, but I just don't see staying neutral as having any potential for being fun. And if it's not fun, what are we paying/playing for?

After playing the game for a year, developing contacts and friends over ALL of Atys, I am not going to reject them on the whim of some shapechanging freakoid or masked real-estate developer. My loyalties are to my fellow Homins - all of them - above my loyalty to my race and far above my loyalty to foreigners, who helped us once but now seem determined to destroy everything that made this 'fun'
I dont see myself enjoying whats coming, and it IS going to hurt missing out on the faction bribes, but that is the price we are required to pay.
As for the TPs, excluding the PR entirely is excessive. It basically denies neutrals the experience of digging Supreme mats (which seems to be why some people ARE in favour of the restriction)
When I bought the game, Kitins were the major external factor, and the Kami/Karavan little more than supporting bit-players. I guess it is progress - but never assume progress is the same as improvement.

And as a final note, I have reduced my subscription to monthly renewals - because there is a limit on the amount of un-fun gameplay nostalgia and stubbornness can force me to put up with

[blaah]

you're right. it should have started from the beginning. But lets also recall that outposts and such were supposed to be in front the start too. Now they're coming, so the changes that should have happened then are happening now. People complained about not having all the stuff that was in the manual, well, we're finally getting some of it, and yet people still are complaining.

outpost are a litte meaningless sub-game. access to tp's are major gameplay component.

thx god, there was no mention about lvl 200 skill cap or we would get it too.

think before you type, read before you post.

[gwythion]

The problem is that not even those who are complaining of not having anything for neutrals aren't of the same mindset. How do you expect Nevrax to create a whole set of neutral stuff when being 'neutral' means so many different things. Some claim neutral to be pacifists. others just not aligned with kami/kara, but still want to battle it out with outposts and spires. Those are two very different meanings of neutral and can't both be catered to.

I have said many times that I think it was wrong from a game development point of view for neutrals to be introduced. I would have improved the likeability of the Karavan and the Kami, the background story and made it something that was part of your birth.

I think you also under estimate the difficulties for Nevrax in keeping Karavan and Kami players happy. I am sure that there will be those that will support Karavan or Kami but would wish to avoid a war with each other instead to fight the kitin together. This has to some extent been allowed for by the PvP flag. They are the ones that I feel most sorry for in all of this. They get access to no new content and yet will be impacted by it more than the neutrals will be.

Neutral the faction because it is all of those not for the kami or karavan is a melting pot off all sorts of ideas more even than you have implied. If you restrict it to the two camps that you have indicated then yes I think both of those camps could be catered for. A better way would be for Tryton to be another cult faction. What ever Nevrax do it would be far kinder for them to give a clearer plan of what they intend rather than the slow drip of information. It could be unfortunately the they do not have a clear idea of what they want to offer for neutrals. So what neutral players are left with are vague promises and ideas, for some this has not been enough and they have left, others stay and hope for something that may never arrive.