"Ganker"

[thlau]

OOC I don't like being killed while I try to do something constructive rather destructive in the game, like - you already guessed it - harvesting and crafting instead of hunting down oponents. So I feel free to call anyone that kills me while I'm afk, or pulls aggos at me while I dig a 'Ganker'.

IC I know, that I step on dangerous grounds, when I enter any type of PvP Zone. On every first encounter I meet everyone with open hand, be it someone of my faction or the other side. If I see someone kill defenseless homins or help someone to kill defenseless homins, my reaction on the next encounter will be biased, irrespective of the type of region this takes place.
eg. I will refrain to heal homins I made negative experience with.

[weedakos]

i have chosen to be neutral through E2 ...i play a matis character, my fame is 0/0 , 0 Hon. points and i have kept, so far, out of the Old Lands *

*i have only been there once to check out the area, died inside the 2min mark, smiled and went back to my usual activities

That being said i dont see why ppl who do dwelve in the old lands moan about dying in any way.

They have chosen to enter a region where there are full blown war conditions.

1) In any war, be it defensive or expansive, its a no holds barred situation..All war dirty tricks are named by history books as strategic masterplans for milemnia now..."all is fair in love and war" and this is war

(eg. the Greeks hid in a wooden horse to take over Troy as a 10y long siege didnt do anything)

-Pulling a group of agro**, could mean the victory of 4 ppl over 9, I see that as a strategy...others may view it as foul play

**in a PvP area

-Killing the opposing factions harvesters while a small team keeps their fighters busy elsewhere, is also a strategic trick and a good one at that harvesters prob see it as ganking

-Killing harvesters to draw out the fighters from the camp, another strategic plan, also viewed as ganking

Bottom line is in a war there is no ganking and no griefing by definition..all goes if ur not on the same side.

2) The Old lands are a place where u will get killed if digging alone just as u would if u where running around a WWII battlefield holding a pneumatic drill drilling holes...

ppl will not wait to see if that is really a weapon in your hands..from afar it looks like a weapon...they will shoot first and ask questions later

3) In E2 its kami Vs kara not kami tanks/nukes Vs kara tanks/nukes...the purpose is not to build ones temple only but to also hinder the opposing temples building progress...harvesters are a main target

that means that if you want to dig you need some number of ppl doing guard duty...cause ppl will come after you sooner or later.

-if one faction builds the temple arent the old lands gonna be all about stopping the other faction from harvesting?

What ppl need to realise is this is supposed to be more of a team effort if u dont want to die.
Perhaps its more than they are willing to do but the scene set by Nevrax hints at certain stuff:

fighters/nukes/healers safeguarding harvesters while digging
fighters/nukes/healers riding attacks to kill the opposing factions ppl
scouts looking out while harvesters dig..alarming their guards for any incoming attacks
harvesters healing when the going gets tough..cause if the fighters go down they are next


All in all u can choose to ignore ppl doing other activities...but dont expect them to ignore you and allow someone to harvest because thats not what its all about...if u hate killing ppl or getting killed while harvesting etc best stay out like many kara/kami choose to do.

-To all the ppl that just want to dig...although your desire is understandable and well respected from me, you need to realise that this place by definition does not allow for that...everyone has the right to moan but holding a grudge would be wrong

[petej]

There are rules/conventions in any war and ppl will be held accountable for their actions (ie war crimes trials) , ppl who break a truce will often cost the lives of their comrades or at the very least make it more likely that the same (truce beaking actions) will be taken against their side when the tables are turned which is counter productive

The main problem with the guard the diggers idea is there is noway for the guards to gain honour whilst doing that unless attacked , so often the guards would go hunting or camp the enermy entry point leaving their own harvestors vulnerable.

Maybe they couldve got round that by having honour points trickle to anyone with a weapon equipped (not AFK) and within 50m of someone of their own faction digging -sounds messy n open to abuse but cant think of anything else lol
EDIT:- oh yeah n make it a timed "guard mission" that expires and needs to be retaken every RL hour or so to stop ppl just staying loged in at a resource spot

[blaah]

That being said i dont see why ppl who do dwelve in the old lands moan about dying in any way.

you work for Nevrax for any chance ?
the reason i ask is, that you message seems to be copy-paste directly from nevrax. i assume, they think the same way as you and many other do.

now, there is other side (losing it's number to bans and unsubs) who thinks that EP2 and old lands are non-consent PvP. to take part of it, you are forced to PvP. Forced, because atm only possible way to get "honor points" is from "old lands". (rumor goes that "honor points" are linked to future content and reward, so you need to have them to take part of future content, whatever that might be)

you can read about it in numerous threads, started by both sides.

about aggro dragging: it has has a few threads on its own too. btw, if you didnt already know, then there is "Global FvF/PvP" in work in Nevrax, so whole Atys will be PvP area and it happens soon (rumor goes this month)

side who loves Ryzom version of PvP (ganking , seems to think "What happens in old lands, stays in old lands".
the other side however takes it personal (it means, they dont like what happens there, but feels that it's needed to take part anyway to get some honor points), and so the "feeling" about fellow "friend" who killed you or dragged aggro in old lands gets "punished" on those actions.
.. and all the "flames" in forum

i feel that both sides are correct and ryzom would be better place atm if those 2 sides would live in different shards. but we live in one shard sadly.
you cant ignore one side. both exists. with EP2 Nevrax forgot that. lets hope in future they improve themselves.

even war needs rules and honor (not EP2 "honor").
what is and what not is allowed in was, is decided by winning side after the war.

[rushin]

The main problem with the guard the diggers idea is there is noway for the guards to gain honour whilst doing that unless attacked , so often the guards would go hunting or camp the enermy entry point leaving their own harvestors vulnerable.

back to teamwork again, and/or that old discussion about having everything handed to you on a plate or having to work for it. Diggers and guards can rotate roles, then everyone gets honor points.

[rangelov]

Cmon, you are a digger and you expect to walk into contested territory and have a pleasant stay? Sure not. You logically get killed by "gankers". You ve got options - negotiate peace (it has worked on many occasions), offer bribe, get yourself some guards, watch the radar, try to find a remote spot... In general, do something in order to ensure your protection. If you just decided to try your luck by walking undefended with a pick in hand - it is your choice, dont blame people for killing you, the event rules are designed in this way - why should a fighter simply leave you in peace so you gain honor points and mats for your faction and he/she doesnt get anything??
The more serious problems we should talk about are the very basic and uninspiring map design, the class balance issues, lack of variety (doing the same thing over and over again sure gets boring, some mini-events within the big event would have helped a lot) etc.

[thlau]

..., dont blame people for killing you, the event rules are designed in this way ...

I'm sorry if I didn't stated clearly enough that I do no longer 'blame' people for killing me. Instead I decided to account them for their doings, regardless of the side they fight for - this goes for kami and karavan.

In my opinion the war is not 'only an event', or a 'game inside the game', war is raging on, and the effects will spread in all regions.

You may see it like gaining and losing fame with my person.

The more serious problems we should talk about are the very basic and uninspiring map design, the class balance issues, lack of variety (doing the same thing over and over again sure gets boring, some mini-events within the big event would have helped a lot) etc.

I agree with you that the map design of Aelius Dunes and Olkers Lake was not complex enough. On both maps nearly nothing blocked the line of sight, and it was nearly always possible, to target an opponent at 200m.
And the mobs were no real hinderence for the homins attacking.

Almati Woods provides a far more intriguing battle field. No clear line of sight because of elevations and trees, mobs don't allow a straight way to the opponent, especially to the lower quality digging areas.
This gives the defender more time to react, as an attacker needs longer for a first successful lock, because he has to search a good position for it.
This setup makes is much more challenging for the attacker, and gives the defender significantly more options.
I wish the first two maps had been like this one. This one is really well done.

[petej]

back to teamwork again, and/or that old discussion about having everything handed to you on a plate or having to work for it. Diggers and guards can rotate roles, then everyone gets honor points.

250 Desert/Forest/Jungle/Lakeland , 188 PR Forage / 112 2h Slash , 138 Elem , 165 Heal swapping roles wouldnt be very effective/efficient now would it?

Cmon, you are a digger and you expect to walk into contested territory and have a pleasant stay? Sure not. You logically get killed by "gankers". You ve got options - negotiate peace (it has worked on many occasions)

Yeah well thats where the ganking aspect comes in (imo) -everyone digging happily together in the middle n along come a couple of fighters bored n not getting any honour points (typicaly only happens when one side is heavily outnumberd as well)...

offer bribe, get yourself some guards, watch the radar, try to find a remote spot...

Id love guards but as i was trying to point out in my first post they realy need/deserve to be getting some honour for that duty , 50m and the radar shows faction im alrdy in range... , there are no remote spots on these maps

[varelse]

There are rules/conventions in any war and ppl will be held accountable for their actions (ie war crimes trials) , ppl who break a truce will often cost the lives of their comrades or at the very least make it more likely that the same (truce beaking actions) will be taken against their side when the tables are turned which is counter productive

People who break up ceasefire agreements by attacking non-aggressive players do get in hot water with their own side. I've seen it happen.

The main problem with the guard the diggers idea is there is noway for the guards to gain honour whilst doing that unless attacked , so often the guards would go hunting or camp the enermy entry point leaving their own harvestors vulnerable.

If we could trade honor points (or the mission mats) to other players with missions for the same faction, we would be able to pay our guards with honor points, and if the kitin yielded trophies, you could have guards rewarded for just guarding diggers.

EDIT:- oh yeah n make it a timed "guard mission" that expires and needs to be retaken every RL hour or so to stop ppl just staying loged in at a resource spot

Ick... I'd really hate that. Any digger who also picks up an amp to defend would probably not like it much either. Any honor points gained while fighting in dig gear tend to just about balance out the ones you lose by being killed in one hit. Forcing us to keep retaking the fight mission would tend to make us lose even more honor points in a fight than we do now.


Another thing that might help a peacekeeping force would be some softening up of the game mechanics that prevent us from switching sides mid-battle. What I have in mind is, you should be able to heal the enemy if you're willing to pay double or triple the honor points for it that you'd get if you killed that player. You should also take a small fame hit with your faction for helping the enemy. Same with attacking your own - you take a fame hit and honor points for killing or helping to kill your own side's players.

Of course, one drawback of this is that a very loyal karavan or kami follower would need to be extremely careful who he or she was teamed with, or could be taking fame/honor point hits for someone else's renegade actions. Also, AoE might have to be left out of this (left unchanged) or the battles would be really messy, really fast.

[marct]

Yeah well thats where the ganking aspect comes in (imo) -everyone digging happily together in the middle n along come a couple of fighters bored n not getting any honour points (typicaly only happens when one side is heavily outnumberd as well)...

Why is it that the only thing that people that are opposed to fighters acting for their faction can think is that they are after honour points???

Personally, I support my fighters with my similar skills to Petej. I sometimes dig with my level 222 dig. I could care less about honor points, it is about my faction building a temple first.

After eliminating the diggers, as I will not allow them the opportunity to equip, and I do not think that is unfair, they could see me coming if they like. I will very often offer them an alternative. "DO NOT come dig for your faction and I will not be forced to stop you." In effect your digging is combat against my faction prevailing. And why should I allow you to put that last bit in your bag while allowing you to finish your dig actions?

That exactly would be the only reason I and many others have for attacking you, defenseless or not.



Other stuff will come along that provides better mechanics, but please please do not accuse people of solely being after honour. And accusing them of being "Gankers" when they are participating in the game and following the story as well as RP is not fair to them as much as you think it is not fair to you to be attacked.

I believe I am a fairly respected homin, and I have many friends on both sides of this front. They know that although I take the action I must, I am still the person they know in the back.

Do not confuse the "player playing the game" with the "character they play in-game". The term "Ganker" applies across this divide and insults people by accusing them of being a type of person they are not for the way they play their character in a game., and that is why it is offensive.

Granted, not everyone is at these standards, but as I have stated in the past the people this term would apply to are severly the minority in this game. And in fact as you so keenly have pointed out the "gankers" have mostly left EP2 because it is not fun.



If you talk to the PvPers some. They have actually made a lot of friends in EP2 that they have never played with or talked to in-game. I often find them guarding an unconscious soul and having a fair nice chat with them. Quite frequently they hold each other to much higher standards than many people think possible of a PvPer.