Where is the pvp challenge?

[riveit]

PvP'ers always claim the reason they like pvp is because of the challenge it brings. You fighting another person.

So then, why do you guys love episode 2?

I don't get it.
Where is the challenge in killing an unarmed digger in 1 or 2 button presses?

I agree that killing diggers should not be rewarded by honor points and EP2 could have been structured much better. But I will say that EP2 can be challenging at times. When one side or the other dominates the field, there is no challenge (except from kitin attacks). However, occasionally the battles are closely contended and can be very exciting. One hears more discussion of combat tactics in EP2 than I have ever heard before. Ryzom doesn't offer much more challenge than a close battle in EP2. I do find solo exploring dangerous regions to be challenging (at least at my level). Digging and hunting can be made routine, however fighting off an assault by Infinity and co. will never be easy or routine.

[lienem]

I wonder if these two players could explain why this [killing an afk player] was a challenge (yes, it's a picture I took while I was writing this )

Hmmm ... guess the obvious answer is you shouldn't be afk in a FvF zone ?

[akicks]

Hmmm ... guess the obvious answer is you shouldn't be afk in a FvF zone ?

Gamic: what's the bet that someone misses the point of my post, and instead says "you shouldn't be afk in an fvf zone"
kiliane: done

from the irc channel, if anyones interested

[marct]

PVP is meant to be challanging.
Challanging pvp is fun.
Killing harvesters is not challanging. (no one has given a reason as to why it is yet).
therefore: killing harvesters is not fun.

This is something that is required of me! It is not that I enjoy killing harvestors, but if completion of a Kami temple could mean that I would soon be obeying the Kami, I must not allow it's completion.

I do say, that these people who are fanatically religious and believe in the Kami must be slowed and even though it is not gracious, fun, or a party, IT IS NECESSARY to make them see the ways of the Karavan.

It is not PvP in the raw killing sense, it is more like guerilla warfare to prevent the spread of a belief. (I can quote many things as examples of this in RL, all of them will be censored for offensiveness though.)

Fanatics do fanatical things and from what I can tell they don't necessarilly think that they are fun, but in fact that they are required to do them.


Noin. (A few dappers worth)

[brithlem]

Hmmm ... guess the obvious answer is you shouldn't be afk in a FvF zone ?

I've actually been dropped 3 ... maybe 4 times being AFK in the FvF zones... and I'm all for coming back to the PC dead as a doornail. Are people supposed to walk past me.... leaving me standing to attack them / rez teammates from the rear when I get back to the keyboard? Going "AFK" could eventually be a ruse ... people acting AFK when solo... waiting for the team to walk past... then coming back. It's a dangerous zone... take precautions or live with the outcome you set yourself up for.

AFK and dead as a doornail,

[varelse]

I get my kicks from defending my fellow diggers when we are under attack, and from charging in and taking back the center dig spot, but also from standing right next to the 'enemy' diggers and foraging with one eye on the compass while the 'enemy' guards eye me. The nervous, fragile peacetimes are as much fun for me as the all out wars, although sometimes the transitions between them get messy.

I'm having a blast with the pvp, and have yet to 'gank' any 'peaceful diggers' to do so... but I've certainly been mowed down by more than one who later claims to have been digging peacefully the whole time.

The challenge in killing unarmed diggers should, and usually does come from the fact that shortly after you do so, someone dressed to kill will come back with them and take YOU out unless you're prepared to fight tougher opponents.

This is a competition, with each side working together to do better at foraging, protecting, and coordinating crafting efforts than the other side's doing. That means to some people, the other sides' diggers must be dropped. I'd hope that no one really expects to go into that area and *never* be attacked, even if they personally never equip anything but a pick... it just isn't a reasonable expectation in a faction battlezone.

[grimjim]

This is something that is required of me! It is not that I enjoy killing harvestors, but if completion of a Kami temple could mean that I would soon be obeying the Kami, I must not allow it's completion.

I do say, that these people who are fanatically religious and believe in the Kami must be slowed and even though it is not gracious, fun, or a party, IT IS NECESSARY to make them see the ways of the Karavan.

It is not PvP in the raw killing sense, it is more like guerilla warfare to prevent the spread of a belief. (I can quote many things as examples of this in RL, all of them will be censored for offensiveness though.)

Fanatics do fanatical things and from what I can tell they don't necessarilly think that they are fun, but in fact that they are required to do them.


Noin. (A few dappers worth)

OK, so lets turn back around one of these arguments then...

"It's just a game so you shouldn't get this upset."

If it is 'just a game' should you take it so seriously that you do thoughtless and selfish things like killing helpless targets just to get ahead? And doesn't the game policy state that 'roleplaying is no excuse for bad behaviour' (or similar phrasing)?

All of these pro arguments can just be turned right back around and expose more than a little hypocrisy and a dissonance between what people say they want and what they do.

[grimjim]

So I think the pvp challenge lies there to live with the consequences of ones actions in pvp zones, everywhere and everywhen in the game, and this includes outside of pvp zones. So don't be suprised, if you will be accounted for your doing where you stand and go.

For that to work properly there would need to be tools programmed into the game whereby we could select people we don't sell to (via the shops) and other ways to keep track of people on our 'bad monkey' list.

I don't see them wasting that much time putting things into the game purely so other players can be victimised however.

(Bonus points for spotting the oh-so-subtle irony in the last sentence).

[akicks]

I do say, that these people who are fanatically religious and believe in the Kami must be slowed and even though it is not gracious, fun, or a party, IT IS NECESSARY to make them see the ways of the Karavan.

Now where getting to the heart of the issue. It's necessary. Why? Not becuase of role play reasons, but because Nevrex have designed it to be necessary. (there are other ways to slow down construction that could have been added to the system).

This is what I want people to take away. If killing harvesters isn't fun, then say so. If you don't, how will nevrex know that this isn't the challange you wanted?

Sure, you have to do it since within the context of the event it pretty much has to happen. However, that doesn't mean it's acceptable to design future events this way.

I relise it's hard to please everyone. But what I'm saying is that no one should be pleased with this event. Here are my reasons for not enjoying the event:

1) The length of time it's taking. Building a temple isn't building a pair of amps, but 6weeks is pushing it. The numbers chosen for the parts seem to be there to make the event last as long as possible.Check out Oshido's great thread about possible dynamic pvp to see just one way

2) There is no challenge to killing harvesters, and yet it is an activity that is activly encouraged. Since there is no challange (a condition that the pvp crowd wanted, and should still want) they should not be happy. (Remember guys, you all had a lot of time to tell me why killing a harvester was a challange, and non of you have. Some people have talked about the whole event being a challenge, but it wasn't what I asked. Some even tried changing the meaning of pvp and they still couldn't answer my question)

3)People are getting ganked. This is a result of both the way some players decide that they didn't want a challenge after all, just some way to kill people easily and Nevrex not having other ways for people to take part in this event. (Times of peace in the zones is good and all, but it just takes one person on either side to ruin it.)

Please don't come away thinking I hate the event though. Some things I did like. Digging materials for temples, (despite me thinking the number was too high) is a great idea. I love digging, and I love it when I can dig.

The steles are a good idea, with some flaws. I love seeing the people who are there in direct competition with each other. Seeing The Samsara overtake Eleytheria the over day was well worth all the hard work we've been putting in as a guild. Seeing Neva constantly keeping the 1st spot is amazing (honestly, how do you keep going?)

Just because people critize an event (and, if you have noticed I waited a long time to start this thread, so I could get a good feel) doesn't mean they think the event is a total failure. I, and many other people are trying to point out what we think is wrong, and we want your input.

(I'm going to stop here, been typing for a while and I'm sure you guys will be bored by this point. I've covered a lot of ground )

[marct]

OK, so lets turn back around one of these arguments then...

"It's just a game so you shouldn't get this upset."

If it is 'just a game' should you take it so seriously that you do thoughtless and selfish things like killing helpless targets just to get ahead? And doesn't the game policy state that 'roleplaying is no excuse for bad behaviour' (or similar phrasing)?

All of these pro arguments can just be turned right back around and expose more than a little hypocrisy and a dissonance between what people say they want and what they do.

First off, I was not upset.

Second off, then give me some other way to stop YOU and any other Kami lovers from completing their temple. I would kick you pick and break it, explode your sources, anyhting I could to stop you. It just so happens it appears to be a cult war. And the only way I have to stop you is to knock you unconscious(sp?), not kill you, and then keep you pent up in your little camp.

Noin.

EDIT: P.S. It's just a game, don't get so mad when I kill you or others as it is the only way I have to prevent you from doing your dirty work. I know it can be frustrating. Same on the PvP side when you see how unbalanced it can be.