Kami/Karavan pole

[grimjim]

but people arent like that !!!

That, is a HUGE political/social/religious can of worms which we really shouldn't get into here.

[tylarth]

According to predominant sociologic thought, the pattern of society goes through a number of configurations, beginning with anarchy, winding a few different paths through tribalism, fascism, feudalism, oligarchies, democracy, etc, and ending in the ideal society, an enlightened anarchy, wherin there are no leaders, nor laws, merely a society of people with common sense and good manners.

Thats a modern marxist theory to a communist utopia. Such a society could not function as there is no crisis decision making process, nor room for achievement or progress.

[iwojimmy]

That, is a HUGE political/social/religious can of worms which we really shouldn't get into here.

But it is in line with the Matisian beleif, that people will reach their greatest potential in an orderly and structured society

idle thoughts.. it is surprising that Matis and Tryker are allies given their conflicting worldviews, but perhaps the Fyros/Zorai aggression/spirituality dichotomy was supposed to have the same effect and just never emerged..
uneasy allies build a stronger story. A more obvious axis would be Matis/Fyros -dominance/aggression versus Tryker/Zorai -independance/spirituality but then maybe the sides would be too clear cut and devolve into some turgid 'Good vs Evil' tripe.

[michielb]

Heh, no, they just need something to be angry about .

According to predominant sociologic thought, the pattern of society goes through a number of configurations, beginning with anarchy, winding a few different paths through tribalism, fascism, feudalism, oligarchies, democracy, etc, and ending in the ideal society, an enlightened anarchy, wherin there are no leaders, nor laws, merely a society of people with common sense and good manners.

Then the predominant sociologic theories missed one minor detail..... human society started out tribal and anarchy is usually nothing more than a short period on instability....

I know, I know, this post is totally pointless but I just had to do it

[grimjim]

Then the predominant sociologic theories missed one minor detail..... human society started out tribal and anarchy is usually nothing more than a short period on instability....

I know, I know, this post is totally pointless but I just had to do it

Big difference between anarchy and Anarchy old chum.

"All this riot and uproar, V... is this anarchy? Is this the Land of Do-As-You-Please?"

"No. This is only the land of Take-What-You-Want. Anarchy means "without leaders"; not "without order." With Anarchy comes an age of ordnung, of true order, which is to say voluntary order. This age of ordnung will begin when the mad and incoherant cycle of verwirrung that these bulletins reveal has run its course. This is not Anarchy, Eve. This is Chaos."

- V for Vendetta

[thebax]

Yes, I agree that similar societies have been attempted before, and that they have failed, often quite miserably. Yes, it is true that they have failed because, as it was pointed out "people aren't like that", at least not all people, not yet.

There is, every now and again, a leap in the thought processes of Homo Sapiens, such as the paradigm alteration that caused one group to leave their bushman village (Shuni? I cannnot remember the name of the tribe, but they are still extant today) ten thousand years ago, because they had suddenly realized "Hey! We can be somewhere else!". This had apparently never occured to them before, just as it doesn't enter the thought processes of non-migratory animals, and even those that migrate only have two or so "somwhere elses". They would never consider going to a different place, just to see what was there, or even going to their current somwhere else(s) unless instinct told them it was time.

Another noticeable leap occured during the Renaisance, when along with alterations in social, political, and religious views, there was a small change around that time that speaks volumes about the thinking process of our species. Graphic representation of perspective. In all the paintings, sketches, and drawings I can think of prior to that time period, the size of people and things within the work were determined by their importance. Referencing non-sapiens again, there are a number of studies that prey-animals actually percieve predators as being larger than themselves, regardless of their actual size. Such as a horse (around half a ton) reacting to a coyote (around 100 pounds, aproximately one tenth the horses mass). Prior to the time around Leonardo DaVinci, it is possible that a six foot six inch peasent actually percieved his five foot nothing king as being larger than himself, no matter how alien that seems to us today.

We are constantly changing as a species. As with any species, these changes are sometimes gradual, the result of selective breeding, but sometimes they are quite sudden, happening within a hundred years or so. As we are all individuals, these "sudden" changes do not occur to everyone at once, it may take a few generations longer for some than for others. It may not occur at all in some, that is what causes divergence in species.

More and more often, humans are attempting to create societies where there are no leaders, merely people that have been chosen by that society to take care of running the community on a day-to-day basis, and, yes, taking care of crisis. As an example, one fairly large country has an elected official, who, in their constitution is granted only two powers, the ability to veto (say no to a bill) a decision by the legislative branch, and the ability to make suggestions for appointments to certain other offices, which must be ratified by the legislative branch, or they simply don't happen. He or she may not make any unilateral decisions unless the legislature has declared martial law, and they decide when it is over, not the official.

In essence, the so-called top person in that government is supposed to be merely a servant to the people (albiet chief servant), not their leader.

In practice, it does not work that way, because we as a species are not all ready to be in control of our own decisions, our own destiny. There is still a signifigant portion that would rather have someone tell them what to do than take any responsibility for their own lives.

Eventually, that segment will either die out, or split into a sub-species, as has happened over and over again.

In Ryzom, the Tryker are, I believe, the closest to the enlightend anarchy. Their tenants include sharing as their most important. If an edict were issued by Governor Whyler, the response from the Tryker people would be "I'll think about it. If I decide it's a good idea, then O.K.".

As far as the Kami/Karavan/Hominist decision is concerned, Tryker pretty much run the gamit. While you will find fanatics to one or the other of Kami or Karavan alliance, they are much rarer than among the Matisians or Zorai. The Fyros have taken the Kami side as a people because they feel that the Kami give them the best chance of survival in their harsh enviornment, a purely pragmatic stance, although there are Fyrosians who ascribe more of a religious flavor to their stance, and a few who feel the same way about Jena.

The Tryker have been given a base allegiance to the Karavan because of game mechanics, but, because of the type of person who wants to play a Tryker, it cannot be said that they are in fact Karavan as individuals. Indeed, a large number have worked fairly hard to switch their allignment to Kami, for the sole reason that somebody told them (according to their starting fame) that they were supposed to be Karavan. Also, because of their base ethos and "individual within a community" outlook, it would be very surprising if the largest number of Hominists did not come from within the ranks of the Tryker people.

[sx4rlet]

In Ryzom, the Tryker are, I believe, the closest to the enlightend anarchy. Their tenants include sharing as their most important. If an edict were issued by Governor Whyler, the response from the Tryker people would be "I'll think about it. If I decide it's a good idea, then O.K.".

As far as the Kami/Karavan/Hominist decision is concerned, Tryker pretty much run the gamit. While you will find fanatics to one or the other of Kami or Karavan alliance, they are much rarer than among the Matisians or Zorai. The Fyros have taken the Kami side as a people because they feel that the Kami give them the best chance of survival in their harsh enviornment, a purely pragmatic stance, although there are Fyrosians who ascribe more of a religious flavor to their stance, and a few who feel the same way about Jena.

The Tryker have been given a base allegiance to the Karavan because of game mechanics, but, because of the type of person who wants to play a Tryker, it cannot be said that they are in fact Karavan as individuals. Indeed, a large number have worked fairly hard to switch their allignment to Kami, for the sole reason that somebody told them (according to their starting fame) that they were supposed to be Karavan. Also, because of their base ethos and "individual within a community" outlook, it would be very surprising if the largest number of Hominists did not come from within the ranks of the Tryker people.

*thinks*
mmmm, personally I don't see the Trykers as enlightened anarchy. More like a loose federation, of tribes, guilds and other groups. To me, Still Wyler is the poor Tryker who has to lead them all, and has to try to keep them all happy and into the federation.
(Yes, poor, as he must have a terrible job doing that... I hope we don't give him nightmares)

I agree with you one the kami / karavan alliance. For me it feels like the Tryker do not like to follow a higher religion / leader / whatever. Might have to do with the slaves they once were.

To me, the looks of the trykers in combination with the freedom lore was what made me play a tryker...

[iwojimmy]

One of the strengths of Ryzom is that the various races allow people to play a style that suits them, even if the game mechanics dont differentiate between the races to any significant degree.

we have our bomb-hurling anarchists, our raving megalomaniacs, people who would rather hit things than ask questions, and people who DO want to know what it all means (although not enough of them)

[michielb]

Figured this was the best thread to post this as it's about the war between the two religions. I could say a lot on this subject but I think Frank Zappa did it better...

Frank Zappa
Dumb all over

Whoever we are
Wherever we’re from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
It’s gonna take a lot more
Than tryin’ to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether

They call it the earth
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
’cause we behave the same...
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near ’n far
Dumb all over,
Black ’n white
People, we is not wrapped tight

Nurds on the left
Nurds on the right
Religous fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin’ the bible
Tells the story
Makes the details
Sound real gory
’bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Don’t believe in the book
We got over here

You can’t run a race
Without no feet
’n pretty soon
There won’t be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Religous fanatics
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it won’t blow up
’n disappear
It’ll just look ugly
For a thousand years...)

You can’t run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state

To arms! to arms!
Hooray! that’s great
Two legs ain’t bad
Unless there’s a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (get down!)
Not his, not hers, (but what the hey? )
The good book says:
(it gotta be that way!)
But their book says:
Revenge the crusades...
With whips ’n chains
’n hand grenades...
Two arms? two arms?
Have another and another
Our God says:
There ain’t no other!
Our God says
It’s all okay!
Our God says
This is the way!

It says in the book:
Burn ’n destroy...
’n repent, ’n redeem
’n revenge, ’n deploy
’n rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
’cause they don’t go for what’s in the book
’n that makes ’em bad
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice french bomb
To poof them out of existance
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise our god
(cause he can really take care of business!)

And when his humble tv servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blond wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
It’s okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
’cause if we don’t do it,
We ain’t gwine up to hebbin!
(depending on which book you’re using at the
Time...can’t use theirs... it don’t work
...it’s all lies...gotta use mine...)
Ain’t that right?
That’s what they say
Every night...
Every day...
Hey, we can’t really be dumb
If we’re just following god’s orders
Hey, let’s get serious...
God knows what he’s doin’
He wrote this book here
An’ the book says:
He made us all to be just like him,
So...
If we’re dumb...
Then God is dumb...
(an’ maybe even a little ugly on the side)