A Possible Solution to the PvP/PvE Clash

[svayvti]

1) Healing in PvP/FvF/GvG areas. It galls many people that their fame is controlling their actions, rather than the other way around, and that it is often impossible to heal or resurect your own guild-mates. It is true that being able to heal anyone at any time will, in some cases, create problems and be exploitable.

With the advent of the flag system I also hope that most PvP areas will be removed, especially as they current implementation makes no sense. Why is one root GvG? why is another FvF? etc?

Possible solution: Add a risk to any conflict. In cases where both may attack, the risk is death on the part of one (or sometimes both) as it is now. For cases where one person or side may not attack, their risk for being in such an area is still death, but the attacker must face a risk as well, to avoid it being an exploit. As a modification to an idea from another thread, attacking and killing those flagged as non-PvP will result in a .2 gain in fame for any faction or civilization the target has -30 or less fame with, and a -1 loss in fame with any faction or civilization the target has +30 or more fame with. Both gain and loss are repeatable, but only once per hour per target. This is non-exploitable, as one may aquire far more fame faster by doing missions for the various welcomers. These fame gains/losses would also reflect a realistic change in a populations view of the attacker.

I believe this is a really good idea.

The only problem is knowing when you attack someone what all damage you're going to do? Will a Fyros loyalist be able to tell a hostile Zora fanatic apart from one of the Kami's Zorai followers?

Will the flag system open you to any kind of PvP challenge? Limit you to GvG? FvF? Civ battles? can you select what type of pvp you want to do? Will Guild Vs. Guild PvP if have any story or reason behind it? Do we have a way of balancing Faction Vs. Faction and Civ Vs. Civ with such unbalanced population numbers?

My proposal is a modification to your proposal. Instead of making the fame change based on fame, each player can choose allegiance(s). To a race/civ, faction, etc. This allegiance is now the group that the attacker gains/loses fame based on. Before all this we really need to see a fame revamp anyways to make it meaningful. The people who've dedicated themselves to a cause should perhaps be able to dedicate themselves to it with special rites (making an irreversible dedication to a side) and/or maybe have an increased global fame cap with that group.

3)Non-PvP Oriented Outposts. This is, as I understand it, already planned. While many of us would have preffered they were introduced first, once both play-styles are accommodated, it becomes a non-issue.

It would be better not to have the issues and to release them both. It will really complicate things and create hostility I believe to do it any other way.
Making Outposts PvP only is certain to alienate PvE players and will disturb the community fundamentally in my opinion. Ryzom should leave its options open for both groups of players, they can't afford to alienate either group.

[sofiaoak]

Not much to say.

Only full consent PvP is possible for me. This means if anyone is able to attack me without my consent, I will find new game to play. This is reason why I never go in PvP zones at all in Saga of Ryzom. This is not because I could not take part of PvP, but more like, it's my decision when I PvP and with who, no-ones else. (Actually I have been PvP zone three times, two where world tours and one time by accident).

So if You can create PvP rules what does not break this, I'm happy.

[mtsmith]

Not much to say.

Only full consent PvP is possible for me. This means if anyone is able to attack me without my consent, I will find new game to play. This is reason why I never go in PvP zones at all in Saga of Ryzom. This is not because I could not take part of PvP, but more like, it's my decision when I PvP and with who, no-ones else. (Actually I have been PvP zone three times, two where world tours and one time by accident).

So if You can create PvP rules what does not break this, I'm happy.

Finally, somebody who is not into PVP who understands and respects the basic system applied by Nevrax. Bravo!

Personally, I stand a little closer to the edge and sometimes throw myself into the abyss with some good, old fashioned smash and grab. If only I could loot those corpses. : :d rool::

For those of you who still fail to embrace the concepts that Nevrax is trying to introduce, please refer to the following steps:

1. Turn off your computer.
2. Go to the mall and buy a cell phone.
3. Stop by the bookstore and pick up the latest trash fantasy novel.
4. Hit the hardware store and buy a pick, a shovel, a large bucket, and a bag of fertilizer.
5. Check out the craft shop and buy string, paper, copper wire, cloth, glue, and some beads.
6. Go home and enjoy socializing, roleplaying, digging, and crafting in the comfort of your home.

This might even save you some money as you will no longer have to pay for the internet access, electricity, and your game subscriptions. This will also reduce the chances of your being killed by nearly 100%.

For an even better time, how about you get together with your favorite person and make a party of it?

2 oz. Gin, 1/2 oz. Vermouth*

Stir over ice & Serve on the rocks or Strain into a chilled cocktail glass, Garnish with a spear of Olives, *For a Dry Martini, omit vermouth & Garnish with a Twist. Vodka may be substituted for a Vodka Martini.

[sofiaoak]

Finally, somebody who is not into PVP who understands and respects the basic system applied by Nevrax. Bravo!

Personally, I stand a little closer to the edge and sometimes throw myself into the abyss with some good, old fashioned smash and grab. If only I could loot those corpses. : :d rool::

I think You missed the point.

Because only open PvP is not possible with the limit what I have with PvP. This is because I don't wanna play victim for someone else. I have notting agaist PvP. Are You saying that open PvP is only way Nevrax is able to do the PvP for You?

What PvP possibilities does someone have in Saga of Ryzom, if he/she does not wanna have open PvP? Duels, what else?

Open PvP is same as You can't say, who You fight with and when You fight. Basicly anyone can attack You anytime.

[uhuhu]

who are you inGame sofiaoak?

[thebax]

In my opinion, PvP in SoR is not well defined. It seems in the Lore, that they had factional setups for racial tensions, as well as Kami/Karavan. I think if they had implemented a PvP system closer to launch, that the racial tensions would be more impacting than they would be today. This leaves us with Kami/Karavan based PvP. The problem with that being, you cannot tell faction bias anywhere in the interface. This makes quick judgments of friend/foe impossible, and that seems, at least to me, to be necessary for valuable PvP.

The faction shield currently in place in FvF zones might help in this regard, if it can be implemented in all types of PvP zones.
Attackers should have a good reason for killing another player. If someone is playing a Karavan, and has sworn "Death to the Kami", the may reasonably be expected to kill any Kami alligned people they come across. To narrow the beam, as it were, if they are playing a Matis-centric character, they may well be expected to kill anyone who is not Matis. Currently they have no way of knowing who is who, and must do some research (ask around, observe the person for a time, etc.) This would require them to spend time (at least the first time) before they decided their target's life should be forfeit, if there was a possible penalty involved in killing the wrong person.
Ganking, killing a person (no matter where they are) with a minimal chance of failure or penalty, is one of the problems with PvP that the PvE group has. The sort of behavior that has a person roaming a PvP area for hours on end, occasionally spotting an easy-looking target, and blowing them away. Once a possible penalty for killing the wrong person is introduced, some hope this behavior will cease.

Sollution: If anyone attacks a person not flagged for PvP the attacker will be flagged murderer by the side the victim belongs to. This would mean that all NPC's aligned with the side of the victim, including town guards, will kill on sigh if the murderer comes within range.....

This might be a good idea. Hopefully it would only occur once, or only as many times as they killed members of that Faction or Civilization, otherwise, it might be too harsh. The fame lowering idea would have the same effect, but would take much longer to "kick in", perhaps an immediate reaction would be more effective. Though it may cause some to quit, and it would be more advantageous to we as a whole if nobody quit, they simply learned to behave themselves. Thankfully, wiser heads than mine(hopefully) will have to decide .
Thank you for providing additional ideas, that is what I was hoping for with this thread

The only effective counter-ganking measures are ones implemented by the system, that trigger everytime ganking occures. Something along the lines of "If you attack and kill a character with a neutral flag, your character will carry a permanent death flag for one week. If your character is killed by anything during that week, it will be erased from the server."

Heh, in moments of pique, I am very tempted to agree, but we want any offenders to learn, not leave. If they are punished too severely, they may simply quit, if they remain, they may become assets to they community, as well as one more subscriber, furthering the life of the game. Perhaps a modification of this? Such as a known percentage, say 25% that attacking a non-PvP flagged or neutral character will result in something similar to the Kami's ultra-nuke, as the in-game powers just happened to be watching at that particular moment?

I think a very easy argument could be made that the crafters risk more than the fighters most of the time, as the fighters choose the most productive battles they can saftly win, but the crafter always risk loosing thier mats if they botch a job.

Good point. When a fighter or caster dies in battle, the risk is death penalty, which is in actuality, a loss of time. A single botched roll on behalf of a crafter can easily equal the same loss of time as a death penalty, in terms of the time it took to get those mats in the first place. Several botched rolls? That can be the equivallent of losing all xp for several days.

This really isn't the single most important topic

I believe it is, because if not handled properly, more than half the people currently playing will leave.

My proposal is a modification to your proposal. Instead of making the fame change based on fame, each player can choose allegiance(s). To a race/civ, faction, etc. This allegiance is now the group that the attacker gains/loses fame based on. Before all this we really need to see a fame revamp anyways to make it meaningful. The people who've dedicated themselves to a cause should perhaps be able to dedicate themselves to it with special rites (making an irreversible dedication to a side) and/or maybe have an increased global fame cap with that group.

Would this still allow players to be "all-friends"? I, for instance, have worked very hard to achieve 100 fame with all civilizations, spending a great deal of time, and dying alot, to prove myself to them. I would hate to see all those months go down the drain. Currently, they see me as a friend, alligned with homins in general, instead of a race in particular (both my Kami and Karavan fames are ever so slightly negative). Would they not see the murder of someone they trust and respect as a bad thing, regardless of who else trusts and respects them?

Because only open PvP is not possible with the limit what I have with PvP. This is because I don't wanna play victim for someone else. I have notting agaist PvP.

Couldn't agree more. I do not think PvP is good for either the game, or for us personaly, but at our current stage of developement as humans (and perhaps homins), some desire it. They have a right to play this game how they see fit, so long as it doesn't negate the rights of others to play the game as they see fit.


The primary problem seems to be non-consensual PvP, and being attacked simply because of where you are. These have led to other problems, such as denial of content to a large segment of the population, and not being able to heal certain people, even your guildmates, which offends many people's sense of reason.

Any solutions we can come up with must fulfill certain criteria;

They must work from a game-mechanics point of view, as well as make sense from an in-game perspective.

Ideally, they would show people that random acts of aggression are not good for either the target or for the perpetrator, and change a the offender from a burr in the game world, into an asset.

They must make the game enjoyable to as many people as possible, while causing as few as possible to quit, and hopefully, draw in a bigger audience.

[vutescu]

Not because I'm b@W but I'd like to add something.

1. @mtsmith: is kinda hard to sell the crafting products IRL. In case you missed that, we were talking about game, not about "how to spend time irl". As long we bought the game and we played it, I believe the subject "how to spend time" was already exhausted: "playing SoR". If you try to tell sofia and others to "find another game", I'd like to say that sarchasm is not really usefull in a constructive thread.

2. I wish the option "ignore" to be placed in drop-down menu under the name. I know how you can activate it from settings, but would be way easier to get rid of annoying leet kids like uhuhu / Audrey.

3. http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showpost.php ... stcount=50
Was the best I could. In other terms, is like in real life: if you have balls to kill another person, you should have balls to deal with the consequences.

[mtsmith]

Not because I'm b@W but I'd like to add something.

1. @mtsmith: is kinda hard to sell the crafting products IRL. In case you missed that, we were talking about game, not about "how to spend time irl". As long we bought the game and we played it, I believe the subject "how to spend time" was already exhausted: "playing SoR". If you try to tell sofia and others to "find another game", I'd like to say that sarchasm is not really usefull in a constructive thread.

2. I wish the option "ignore" to be placed in drop-down menu under the name. I know how you can activate it from settings, but would be way easier to get rid of annoying leet kids like uhuhu / Audrey.

3. http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showpost.php ... stcount=50
Was the best I could. In other terms, is like in real life: if you have balls to kill another person, you should have balls to deal with the consequences.

Why is it that nobody can understand sarcasm? Obviously, none of us are going to go through the steps I so kindly provided, as it was intended to be a joke...

There ARE consequences to killing somebody in Ryzom. The killer has to deal with the reactions of not only the person being killed, but their guild, their race, their family, and their country. Perhaps this is deserving, but it's quite possible that this is only so in a small percentage of cases. I happen to believe that only certain people are killed regularly and that, contrary to popular belief, they either encourage the engagement by having performed similar actions, or they have put themselves in a situation that could have easily been avoided.

Avoiding PVP is incredibly easy in any MMO and most especially in this one. Nevrax has even supplied us with a handy dandy little compass that will let you see anything within 250m. Here's some advice. If you see a blue dot at the edge of your 250 compass, enter /who into chat. If the region contains a person known to be involved in PVP, teleport to the nearest safe zone. I understand that there is a timer, but nobody but you and Nevrax will know that you are still flagged for PVP with the current structure.

If you are not willing to take even the bare minimum steps to evade what you think is so terrible, then I have absolutely no sympathy for you. There are very few people on the shard that will even bother anybody in the roots, myself excluded with a few exceptions. If I saw Baxter in a PVP zone, I'd keep running past him and I might even wave. The same goes for the vast majority of the people I meet. However, if Jyudas and I happened to cross paths, it might just get ugly.

I don't maintain some magical kill on sight list, nor do most of the people I know. We would go to the roots and involve ourselves in a struggle to gain a supernode. To me, that is very similar to the concept that armed outposts will provide. There is an objective, one or more targets, and a reward.

All that said, I have an idea that will eliminate all of this and that I believe will make Ryzom that much more interesting.

OPEN THE SURROUNDING ROOTS
The entire planet is surrounded by root tendrils. From the ground, we can see vegetation growing, so it stands to reason that herbivores could make the regions a home. As time went by, certain carnivores would migrate from certain areas where food is scarce. Finally, over time, ranks would form and animals and monsters that stood out from the rest would form castes, thus allowing for herd leaders (bosses).

Upper Roots:

1. Mobs >= 250
2. Open PVP
3. Fame rewards for certain bosses

That said, the only addition that will balance this out for diggers would be to create special regions with no monsters at all, but one that could be patrolled by Kami or Karavan units who wish for the areas to remain clear for their own reasons. One could not stand a chance of winning a battle with these patrols, but they should be relatively easy to avoid, thus allowing diggers to hunt without the worry of being 'ganked' (still hate that word).

Lower Roots

1. No monsters at all, but perhaps some sort of non-aggressive life-form to add the usual level of annoyance a digger usually faces from herbivores.
2. 250+ zones would be more commonly patrolled
3. Material spawn regions would have a better balance between Supreme/Excellent/Choice materials, but Kami tolerance would be much more intrusive, thus offering some challenge to the process.
4. No PVP
5. Kami and Karavan patrols will not harm anybody coming in within 1.5 minutes. They will not camp teleporters or portals.
6. Patrols move very fast, but they are on regular patterns on a daily basis. In other words, they will change their pattern daily, adding at least a little randomness to make things interesting.

Please give this some thought and let me know what you think. This concept gives everybody the same treatment, but yet it also separates, allowing those who wish to dig higher level materials the ability to do so, undisturbed by agressive players, while also giving those interested in advanced combat a way to vent their daily frustrations on higher level monsters and in PVP struggle. I'm sure this is not a perfect solution (no solution ever is) and there might be technical issues, but I haven't heard anything better so far. Every other suggestion or argument is to ignore the path Nevrax has offered and to eliminate PVP in some form or another. For many of us (an obviously Nevrax), this is simply unacceptable.

[uhuhu]

"2. I wish the option "ignore" to be placed in drop-down menu under the name. I know how you can activate it from settings, but would be way easier to get rid of annoying leet kids like uhuhu / Audrey."
SHUT UP MAN NOW OK? I stopped to speak on this silly forum about people, so do the same NOOB

[uhuhu]

You can't PvP because u're WEAK and if I like PvP, I can, so **Text removed as swearing is not permitted on these forums. Please refer to the noticed displayed here for more information**
http://www.ryzom.com/?page=support_policies