Do we really need PvP?

[borg9]

Back to the thread:
It seems that a part of players believe that PvP is degenerating in griefing. From this reason they are against PvP.
On the other hand the ones that are pro-PvP are very trustfull in human nature and think that all the players will act mature and responsable. They believe that PvP implementation will only add spice to the game and will be no place for gank / grief.

The problem is that once implemented, the PvP will stay.
And when the forums will be full of "I've been random PK'ed (+3 players vs 1 or +200 lvl vs -100 lvl) in (insert area here) X times" the pro-PvP-ers will probably say "Stop whinning, is a PvP game" or "You don't get DP, why are you whinning?"

This is getting quite disturbing! I am finding myself agreeing with you more and more. You sum up the to extremes perfectly, however we both know that only the middle ground really exists, and yep once its implemented its here to stay.

[oauitam]

The thread's getting a bit derailed.

The thread for feedback on how to fight over outposts is here;
http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17951

This thread is the for the discussion;
"Does Ryzom need PvP ?"

As they are at the moment, PvP and Outposts are too inter-mingled to seperate. This thread must also consider Outposts and the battles involved with them to have any merit.

Not quite, and it's counter-productive.

The outposts, as described, entail PvP (entail = implication, ie. you can't have the outposts as propsed without accepting some PvP).
PvP does not entail the outposts.
But that's all by the by.

The last few posts have had very worthwhile content in them, but unfortunately anyone looking for feedback on how to fight to control outposts, especially busy devs, will look here instead. I don't think that what people have had to say about 'how to do pvp well' should be ignored so putting those notes into the right thread would be good.

However, I don't think this thread was aimed at 'how to do pvp well' but rather at the more fundamental question of 'do we really need pvp'. Obviously, if we think that Ryzom needs PvP then we all want it to be done well and the separate question of how to do it needs to be addressed.

So far we seem to have one good argument for why Ryzom needs PvP; a chap knows some ex-players that would come back if PvP was more fully implemented.
We have had lots of good arguments for why Ryzom doesn't need it; the problems it brings for ooc conflict and forum wars, exit of current players, reduced income for Nevrax, increased expenditure on customer service, game balance, split dev time etc.

I'd look forward to reading more views on whether we really need PvP if anyone has any?


----
edit addition;
My long winded essays take so long to write that there have been 3 more posts while I wrote this and we're already back on topic. Thanks for letting us hear the new views!

[grimjim]

Well I can see two 'good' reasons for it.

1 - it _may_ bring in some new players and bring back old ones*
2 - The challenge of a thinking opponent.**

*This is balanced by the fact it may put a lot of people off and cause an exodus equal to or greater than those it brings in.
**Which needn't _actually_ necessitate PvP, if the devs are smart.

[oauitam]

This is getting quite disturbing! I am finding myself agreeing with you more and more. You sum up the to extremes perfectly, however we both know that only the middle ground really exists

This is a really interesting point, borg9. I'd be immediately more tempted to say that this is one of those few cases where a middle ground doesn't exist!

Think of Adam, out digging in a PvP zone, who gets nuked from behind by Bill.
I can easily imagine A feeling;
1) I really hate that B, he's spoilied my quiet hour's fun. I'll log and hope he isn't there tomorrow. *mutter mutter mutter*
or 2) Now B is going to get it! I love a good ruck; wait until I get some armour off a packer and get back here! *plot plot plot*

I struggle to imagine a middle ground. Maybe something like A feeling;
3) Oh well, nevermind. I hope B enjoyed that. I'll just buy another tp ticket and see what happens when I try again.

and yep once its implemented its here to stay

I am sure it will be painful, if it's even possible at all, to get the genie back into the bottle.

I think you said something earlier that is relevant to this too. Something along the lines of, "Guns don't kill people, gun owners do."

To extend the metaphor, we're in a very priviledged position here. We haven't invented guns yet and (if only for the sake of this thread) we still have the choice. We can look around, and at ourselves, and see who the gun owners will be.

Do we need to invent guns?

[xenofur]

you'e forgetting something, ryzom will not have full open pvp (i think that's what you described), it will have FvF with choice, so it'll be more like:
Fyros and Matis have activated FvF

F is sitting at bridge tower way digging some stuff to get stuff for his matis craft skill, knowing that he is "trespassing on enemy land"
M comes along and nukes him, since he sees the label above F's head

i'll leave the mental exercise of thinking up possible thoughts of F to you

[sprite]

Do we need to invent guns?

Looks to me like the "future gun owners" are doing quite well bashing each other (and others) over the head with sticks

[oauitam]

What I was trying to describe is a situation that could be happening right now, as we type, in a PvP area of the Prime Roots for example. I was trying to talk about this 'middle ground' and to say that, in my mind, there isn't really a grey zone of people who aren't really bothered either way.

I said that, for the sake of argument, let's pretend we don't yet have metaphorical guns (when in fact, in a few regions, we obviously do). I have done some thinking about F's feelings in your story - his position is A's in the previous story. I can imagine him thinking it's great or it's awful but I can't imagine him not being bothered.

Are you saying that Ryzom needs more FvF regions or not?
If so, why? If not, why?

[vutescu]

I dare say that the density of population (aka player base) raported to dimension of the world is way too low to afford FvF.
Would be quite interesting to make a pool to see what race is the main character of each player. Taking a wild guess I'd say the most are trykers, then fyros, then matis then zorai. (even I don't like that, my main being a fyros)

And about the middle ground.
4. I'll ask my mentor / friend (I assume each player have at least a close mate in game) to come and careplan for me. I'll see if we get both attacked by the same person. Or I ask my guild to protect me while I'm harvesting. Or (is what I'd do) I change the harvesting place.

[xenofur]

What I was trying to describe is a situation that could be happening right now, as we type, in a PvP area of the Prime Roots for example. I was trying to talk about this 'middle ground' and to say that, in my mind, there isn't really a grey zone of people who aren't really bothered either way.

I said that, for the sake of argument, let's pretend we don't yet have metaphorical guns (when in fact, in a few regions, we obviously do). I have done some thinking about F's feelings in your story - his position is A's in the previous story. I can imagine him thinking it's great or it's awful but I can't imagine him not being bothered.

well, i can imagine a middle ground there, if i were F i would go into the situation with the expectation of being killed. i would be happy if it doesn't happen and i would be pretty much indifferent if it would happen. in that case i'd simply try to return to my activity by whatever means i have at my disposal(sneaking, overpoering, guild, friends, etc.) or accept defeat. i'm not particularly aggressive, so i wouldn't be overjoyed at the prospect of the battle, but i wouldn't be mad at M either, because my fyros knows it was his duty.

Are you saying that Ryzom needs more FvF regions or not? If so, why? If not, why?

if dexton tells me to take up arms for a good reason, i would do so. (for example if yrkanis would really try to make his words a few months back true) but in order to be able to do that in any meaningful way there would have to be zones in which battles could be fought. i'm not too thrilled about those forced zones, but subscription FvF zones are needed as far as i'm concerned.

[trenker]

Perhaps it isn't so much as do we need PvP as does Nevrax need PvP?

Nevrax feel they need it because in their (and perhaps Jessica's) experience of the market it will bring in more players.

Do we need more players? Well if we want Nevrax to be here in the future then perhaps yes, indirectly therefore, we need PvP.

But we don't all want all types of PvP, so hopefully when it is implemented those of us who do not want some of the types of PvP going on will be able to avoid it.

I have a hunch that we will want some bits, like when your guild rallies to defend your outpost. Other bits some of us will hate, like the inability to walk safely through enemy territory what we once strolled without fear.

All the people will PvP some of the time, and some of the people will PvP all the time, but I don't think all people will PvP all the time, and herein is the balance for us all.

Tember
A good for nothing nobody